WOO , as you I will be voting for my childrens and Grandchildrens future . The UK has a huge service industry , led by the big banks which now have some relief from Eurozone regulation. The UK also has a large manufacturing industry , we make and export more cars now than in the 1970's - blooming good cars as well ! A vote to leave the worlds largest trading group must seriously damage our position. The OUT vote seems to blame the EU for everything , the weather , Chelsea's league position everything. Now look below who is supporting the Leavers , what other reason do you need to vote YES !
I am hoping both parties ( for both in and out) bring out an idiot's guide (for me and others like me) describing both the pros and cons of each alternative nowadays and future projections. When we were originally deciding whether to join the EU (then EEC) I was studying Economics and was firmly in the stay out camp, voted as such and we promptly joined! I really am undecided what is best for the next generation. I'm inclined to vote to stay only because it will lessen any chance of ANOTHER referendum but for no other reason that I know of atm. I do agree tho that some of our EU partners are helping to keep this country going! For example, my daughter, until recently was driving the length and breadth of the UK with refrigerated goods, delivering them to cold stores of the majority of our supermarkets. It was EXTREMELY rare for her to see any British people working in the cold stores that she delivered to. The vast majority of the workers were from either Poland or Lithuania. She also did deliveries for a huge vegetable producer and never saw a British person either picking or processing the vegetables. If we make things unattractive for foreign workers to come and do our less pleasant jobs who are going to do them? Little Johnny with his media studies degree who's never got his hands dirty and thinks because he has a degree he should be paid 50 grand a year, employers don't agree with him so he's on the dole.? These are only 2 examples of jobs being done almost exclusively by foreign workers which I am aware of, for a fact, I'm sure there will be others. Maybe @wiseowl having been very proactive with your research, you could produce an idiot's guide for me. If it's anything like as good as your Rose growing then I'll be properly informed before making up the grey matter!
The problem with that is whether we really want to be associated with the TTIP. There are quite a number of things in that agreement that may not be good for us and we may be better off making our own rules and agreements (the NHS may be in more danger ). So far there seems to be two distinct areas that we should be interested in: business (jobs, finance, trade etc.) and social (welfare, NHS, protection of liberty etc.). We're not being given enough information at the moment and, soon, we're going to be inundated with too much highly biased information. For example, the media are saying that most of big business want us 'In' as it will help preserve jobs and income. Whether that's true, or not, is debateable at the moment. The UK spends more money in the EU than the EU spends in the UK (import/export, trading etc.). Do the EU really want to change that? There's no doubt that big business will have a lot more paperwork to comply with if they're exporting and importing if we leave, but other restrictions will lessen (rules on dealing with non-EU countries. We hear little from the media about small business . They represent 60% of all private sector employment in the UK and a large proportion of them have said would like us to vote 'Out' as they hope (a very important word) that some, or a lot, of the restrictions imposed on them by the EU would be lifted. We have nowhere near enough information on how coming out of the EU would affect all the income generating businesses and their employees. So how can we make up our minds? It's a similar thing with all the social aspects - no real information yet. Does anyone know what will happen to the net payments we make to the EU (percentage of our GNP, VAT and Customs Duties, less rebates)? The amount varies depending on the source. The government make it somewhere between 8 and 9 billion, Farage makes it around 20 billion and good estimates make it somewhere around 11 billion (because the government conveniently leave out the direct effects on households). I have no idea what would happen to it. The NHS could do with some of it but would they get it? Without enough information we're not going to be able to make an informed decision. We need lots of public debates with 'experts' from both sides. Will we get them? Who'd like to take bets on it? I'm getting rather uncomfortable sitting on this fence and need much more information before I decide which way to jump. I hope it will be a soft landing.
Maybe the poll companies should use you as their benchmark instead of their usual, wrong, guesswork. See how much they'll pay you to let them know which way you'll vote! On your other point. When we were touring the Highlands we didn't meet a Scot in our first five days (most of the locals were from Northern England) and the first one we met was a waiter in an Indian restaurant in Inverness!
Interesting factoid - of the 28 EU countries the UK contribute 12.5% of the EU's income. Only Germany and France contribute more I believe. We leave - there's a big black hole in their funding - perhaps we can use this cash to plug the big black hole in the public finances. As everyone knows, I work for a Council - there's another 3 years of budget cuts still to come. In the end there'll be nothing left. I'm not from Vulcan - but increasing demand (people living longer and those moving into the UK) and reducing budgets are not good bedfellows.
There is a widespread assumptionthat leaving the EU will suddenly make Britain about £11 billion per year better off, and that money will be ploughed straight into our vital services. There are already examples of nations that didn't join the EU but have trade deals with it. They have to pay sizeable subscriptions to keep trading, yet because they are not members, they have no say. Even if, and its a big if, we did keep all the trade deals but didn't have to pay billions per year, there is still the question of where that money would go. Would it be ploughed into the nhs? Education?Defence ? New business development? I somehow doubt it.Sure tthere'd be token gestures. Perhaps a few potholes might get fixed in London and the south east, but I suspect somehow the money would just vanish.
Council's are already 'creaking at the seams' - the turnaround on capping elderly residential care costs has shown this. Contrary to what we are led to believe - NHS budgets are not protected - there has been some serious jiggery pokery going on in the background. In April 2013 responsibility for public health transferred from the NHS to English Councils - budgets in this area have been cut. In fact we had to sustain an 'in year' cut part way through the financial year. Public Health England - not often reported in the news (but part of the NHS) also sustained a budget cut. The billions will probably go to paying off the deficit - it looks like George is not going to meet his lending targets. He's already had a pop at local government pensions - he wants me to retire at 67 - no chance. Some of the people I work with are looking at retirement ages later than this. Sadly its a case of extending the retirement age so that more people pop off before they can draw it or soon after.
Retirement? What is that? I fully expect that when I pop my clogs I'll be buried with a laptop and expected to work in the afterlife. If paying the deficit off is reason to leave the eu, I would not be comfortable with that. It seems like solving household cash flow problems by choosing to stop paying the mortgage and using the mortgage money to pay off the credit card. A very short sighted strategy. Now if there was a good case to not pay the mortgage anyway, perhaps because the neighbourhood is terrible and its time to cut our losses, then freeing up that money to clear other debts is a nice by product, but on its own it's not reason enough. Or another way to look at it, I, like many, am in debt. I spend about £250 per month just getting to and from work. That's mostly fuel for my car and doesn't even take tax, insurance, maintenance etc into account. I could leave work, sell my car, and use the money saved to pay off my mortgage faster. Except I couldn't, because I'd have no income at all. It's possible that I could negotiate some deal where I could work from home, but before pulling out of my current arrangement I'd be wise to make sure I'd already secured alternatives.
Personally I dont expect to be better off whether we leave or stay. I think to the bloke in the street it will be the same old story, it always has been and always will be. I just dont like the idea of us having elections etc. then the people we elect dont actually have a say in running our country or making our laws. Oh yes, we have MEPs, but they are mostly about cosying up to the EU, and not really rocking the boat too much, lets face it, the few from this country have achieved nothing in changing anything in how the EU is run, in all these years, its not really in their intrests to do so. I'd also put the EU on a par with FIFA as regarding the way its run. Its just not been uncovered yet
This is only Woo's recollections and personal thoughts,and in no way is it meant to offend anyone on Gardeners Corner In or out of the EU it really doesn't make a difference to how we live now Oh Dear when I my generation were younger we never thought about retirement(although saved for it) we just made the best of what we had and every day was a bonus as it still is now,we worked physically hard, eat what we could get,and slept when we could,we had no media ,no TV to bombard us with facts and diseases 24/7 our brain wasn't overloaded with computers,Ipads,like young people have now,and the only market was the local one once a week,hospitals were no better just that we died earlier I am not saying that the old days were better just different A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
@pete, we don't elect our leaders anyway. We elect a party, who elect their own leader. We don't even really elect a party. Look at what happened in the last election. Ukip got loads more votes than the snp, yet ukip got one seat and the snp took pretty much the entirety of Scotland, and all the Westminster influence that comes with that.
We could argue about our voting system which I agree is wrong. But it is still our voting system, the EU are yet to tell us we have to change it They wont bother, I guess, because they know their ultimate aim is to make individual countries governments irrelevant.
Its just a shame the peoples, media and politicians that wish to stay in Europe have had to fall back on the old strategy of PROJECT FEAR to try to win their case.Theyve even got Obama telling us what to do now. How dare the USA tell the British peoples what to do domestically. Now Blair has waded in too with more forecasts of doom and imminant terror attacks if we dare leave europe against americas wishes. If fear is all they can think of instead of hope and bravery then I have a nice little tale for them to contemplate. The next financial crash when it happens will ruin many a European country big and small. Deutsche bank is on the edge already and will be one of the first and largest banks that will take most of the rest down with it. Britain has a choice to make. Do we stay with the sinking ship that runs this country and controls its politicians or do we go our own way and return to trading with the world and prosper again on our own terms ? And remember we import far more from Europe than we export. We employ and house millions of their workers. They need us and our money more than we need their regulations, red tape, threats, bullying tactics, and financially bankrupt governments.
