You can actually trace back the beginnings of the EU to around 1951, longk, when it's embryo was the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community started by the 6 inner countries with the beginning of the idea of a Single Market Trading Policy. After that it developed into what it is now after Maastricht, Schengen, Lisbon treaties, the creation of a single currency [which is a major step to taking away a country's sovereignty, independent economic decisions and being controlled by a organisation run by Banks and two countries with an agenda of Federalisation], and with the common purpose of a single market, open borders etc, and most importantly that all members countries should prosper equally in the areas of trade, legislation, finance and all countries being equal. So the EU has been around for 65 years in one form or another and what has it achieved? Are all countries equal?, are all countries prospering equally?, has the Euro lifted poor economies up from the lower levels, has the Schengen treaty been a success or, when it was tested by the influx of immigrants and refugees, did all the participants start putting up fences and razor wire? Only two countries seem to have prospered, are more equal that the other equal countries, with the Mediterranean countries struggling Unfortunately, the European Economic Community became the Common Assembly, which became the Parliamentary Assembly, which then became the European Parliament which in a very short time became more powerful due to a succession of treaties. Then, to make it an even more powerful animal, along came the Maastricht Treaty giving it a major role in the two "pillars" of intergovernmental principles. What really happened is that intergovernmental participation actually was diminished as it became an independent omnipotent organisation answering only to itself.
Agreed, and absolutely right. There was no mention of Federation agendas which will lead to the two Alpha Dogs of the EU controlling it.
I keep hearing a lot of good arguments against being in the eu, or at least pointing out the imperfections. While all credible, and I really don'tmean to mock, for reasons I can't explain because I don't know myself, I can't shift from my head a scene from life of Brian. " What have the Romans ever done for us....". The eu must have its benefits. We have some very successful world leading projects with other eu members. ESA is a worthy partner to NASA on the space front. Our latest fighter aircraft, the typhoon, is a joint venture with us and some other eu states. None of us could have afforded it individually. On science, I believe the LHC at CERNis the biggest particle accelerator in the world and has produced some epic science. A believe a Scottish chap has gone down in history as a result of that particular joint venture. And what about all the British ex-pats in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy etc that won't have had to bother with visas and emmigration bureaucracy? On competition, the eu has gone after big names like Google and Microsoft and forced them behave a bit. They forced Google to implement the right to be forgotten, and they forced Microsoft to offer alternative browsers instead of locking people into IE, which enables other developers to stand a chance at getting their software into the market. I'm still undecided, but what is frustrating me is that even though this is vastly more important than a general election, we're seeing the same approach. Everyone wants to point out imperfections, but nobody wants to highlight the best side of either argument. Once again is about choosing the least bad option instead of the best option.
Well, Cameron's argument is "Stay in the EU because it's "safe" and if we don't we're taking a leap into the dark". “You may delay, but time will not." “I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow.” “Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him." “Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him." “You cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.” And so on, ad infinitum
But David Cameron is an arrogant idiot. His argument is old news. We have as much as we're likely to get from him. In a very short time, we'll have to make, as a collective, a decision of epic proportions. We can dwell on David Cameron's idiocy, or we can try to work out which option brings most benefits. Or we can each blindly go with our gut, and vote the way we've always fantasised we would when we thought we'd never really get the chance, without wasting time with anything so irrelevant as actual logic and reason.
I reckon the Remain vote is going to get a huge boost from this! P.S. I wonder if we submitted it as our Eurovision Song Contest entry whether the UK would be chucked out regardless of which way we vote?
That's why I've been saying that we haven't (yet) got any plausible information for us to make an informed decision. The EU is not as originally explained or envisioned and has done a lot of good as well as a lot of bad. It's for us to decide whether the good, or potential good, outweighs the bad or potential bad. I don't usually make decisions without enough information and that's why I'm trying to get that information. Whether I'll succeed is another matter . By June I shall make my decision on the information that I have gathered and by what I perceive the situation will be if we leave the EU. My perception, so far, of the EU is that it does a lot of good but may be morphing, or has morphed, into an uncontrolled monster. Too much of it seems to be autonomous, but does that detract sufficiently from the good it does? I'm hoping that by June we should have more correct information on the implications of the possible financial impact and not just having the scare mongering, from all sides, that we have at the moment. What concerns me is the influence that the refugee crisis may have on the situation as the EU members seem to be squabbling more and more over it instead of trying to come to a 'workable' solution. At the moment the incorrect and stupid rhetoric that is coming from both sides is just creating confusion.
Someone drew my attention to thefact that the eu might force us to pay vat on items that are currently vat exempt. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-on-food-medicine-and-childrens-clothing.html This could potentially sway my vote. It amounts to a substantial increase in my cost of living as a proportion of my net income. I'm also currently disappointed with how the eu is bullying Greece. First they half starve them, and now they're saying it's up to Greece to defend the whole eu from the migrant influx while everyone else completely flours the agreements they signed up to. My pro eu side considers the collective defence. But I read that Germany, the biggest player in the eu, openly admits to have only a handful of air worthy fighter planes and an inadequately trained army. Right now, as I sit on the fence, I'm looking at the 'out' field.
We're gonna do some rock 'n' rollin' okey cokey You put your right arm in, your right arm out, In out, in out, shake it all about You do the okey cokey an' you turn around, that's what it's all about, sing it … Woh oh, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey Hands clap, knees bent, yeah, yeah, yeah Put your left arm in, your left arm out, In out, in out, shake it all about You do the okey cokey an' you turn around, that's what it's all about, come on Woh oh, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey Get drunk, fall down, yoh, yoh, yoh Put your right side in, your right side out, In out, in out, shake it all about You do the okey cokey an' you turn around, that's what it's all about, come on, sing it … Woh oh, the okey cokey, sing it (woh ho, the okey cokey), let me hear you (woh ho, the okey cokey) Hands up, legs straight, yeah, yeah, yeah You put your left leg in, your left leg out, In out, in out, shake it all about You do the boogie woogie an' you turn around, that's what it's all about, come on, sing it … Woh oh, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey A-ram-bam-a-loo-bam a-lam-bam-boo You put your backside in, your backside out, In out, in out, shake it all about You do the okey cokey an' you turn around, that's what it's all about, sing it … Feel the okey cokey, ooh feel the okey cokey, feel the okey cokey Hands clap, knees bent, yeah, yeah, yeah You put your whole self in, whole self out, In out, in out, shake it all about You do the okey cokey an' you turn around, that's what it's all about, come on, sing it … Woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey Hands clap, knees bent, yeah, yeah, yeah I said, ooh in the moonlight, ooh in the moonlight, ooh in the moonlight Hands clap, knees bent, yeah, yeah, yeah One-tiddily-eye-eye, yeah yeah yeah, Wam-bam-a-loo-bam a-wam-bam-boo Wam-bam-boo, ooh-ahh-ooh … Woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey, woh ho, the okey cokey Hands clap, knees bent, yeah yeah yeah , I said … Woh ho, the okey cokey, sing it (woh ho, the okey cokey) Louder, louder (woh ho, the okey cokey) Louder louder Um-diddily-ahh-ahh, ooh-ahh-ohh Get drunk, fall down, yeh yeh yeh Bees start a-jumpin', yeah yeah yeah Yeh yeh yeh, yo yo yo, ooh hah, ooh hah, yeah yeah yeah yeah … There are only two decisions, Clueless, ..............In or out
I'm still undecided. There are pros and cons to both sides. But at present, I personally am starting to warm to the idea of voting out. Apart from recent revelations, I don't like how the polish of all people objected to Dave's idea of us not sending child benefit there, and the French objecting to pretty much everything, while Germany is the overlord. So 70 odd years ago, both my grandads, like many, many thousands of ordinary people fight to liberate Poland and France from a German overlord, only for us now to kowtow to the Poles and the French who we liberated, and who now bow to the nation we liberated them from
Some things never change, Clueless..........you sound like someone who is living on a island and is a neighbour to the Europeans!!
Plus there's talk of big increases in member countries contributions, to pay for migrant crisis plus other stuff, details to be announced the week after referendum result. Plus UK taxes might have to rise (or additionall cuts made) because the budget deficit reductions are not saving enough (rest of the world's fault apparently). But I've just remembered that DC previously said he wanted the EU to reduce expenditure, he seems to have forgotten to include than one in his list of 'reforms'.
