It'll only work if people believe what rubbish is being put out there by Politicians and Media alike.
I more meant the name alone, but aye, best to keep ones eyes open and read facts rather than scaremongering in either direction!
I think that, particularly in the last decade, the UK public has become more and more exasperated with the growth of useless, one size fits all, legislation that the EU has spewed out. That, and the sense of our own independence as a sovereign state being slowly diminished , and I don't think a 2 year procedure where the EU Ministers, and ours, can claim vast expenses over procedures that only they make complicated will deter those who wish to vote to leave from doing so.
My personal current frustration with it is that Germany is unilaterally declaring Europe open to all, word of that is reaching even countries that are not war torn, so everyone is legging it here as fast as they can before Merkel changes her mind, only to find themselves stuck in Greece because everyone else has done their own thing, and then they all have a go at Greece for letting them land, as opposed to sending them straight back out to sea. Or in short, Merkel is unilaterally speaking for the eu, and while nobody dare speak against her, many are at least ignoring her and blaming someone else. It's embarrassing.
The thing that makes me the wariest about "brexiting" is that I remember how much, not so long ago, the Tories wanted to scrap and re-write the EU Convention of Human Rights. There was such a public outcry against it that they quietly slid it away, but I know they haven't forgotten about it. You only need to look at how many lovely, regressive things they've been pulling out now they're in "full power" again to see that! When you look at the thing, there's literally nothing that should be removed. At all. Everything in there is fundamental. And then I think to how the Tories are treating the poor and disabled, and I really don't want them to have free rein over human rights. So yeah. Still keeping my options open and doing my reading, but not as "eurosceptic" as some, I guess. Besides, still have to concentrate on the ScotGov elections first! (which the EURef is so rudely placed very close to, lol )
Wasn't it the European human rights thing that meant we had to pay to house a hate preacher who was also convicted as a terrorist in Jordan for about 10 years, after Europe blocked every attempt to deport him?
What was the name of that? It must have slipped me by, but I'd love to look it up! I def' agree the EU's no basket of roses (especially right now), but I'm also not comfortable with leaving human rights to a Tory govt. I.D.S paraphrased "Work Makes You Free" on live telly not long after he was appointed last term, and now we're under investigation by the UN for human rights abuses towards disabled people. So yeah, therein lies the rub, I guess.
I think everyone agrees that we need some form of Human Rights Bill but the present EU form seems to be one that is easily misused and abused by the very people who are preaching the restrictions of their own people and doing so in the safety of this country. So I, myself, would welcome a new Bill of Human rights as seen from the British perspective with a view to protecting those in need rather than those who misuse and abuse it.
Oh yeah totally, I mean, in principle I'm not against a rewrite, just... not a rewrite by people who're terminally harassing disabled people right now. That's kind of important.
I think it was the Abu hamza case I was thinking of, but my memory is not good when it comes to names. I agree that the prospect of a tory, or indeed any party government being completely free is a scary one. It's that one thought that makes me as yet unconvinced about voting out. But I keep asking myself which I think could be worse politically, financially, and morally. I still don't have a solid decision. I kind of envy those that do while at the same time being slightly distrustful of them, because I think it's too big a decision to decide so easily. Right now though, I am leaning towards out, on the basis that I don't like the idea of Europe driving, and the utter discord we see at the moment with migrants being invited just to be trapped, and Greece being bullied, I think it's shameful to be associated with it. Then more generally, there's the almost fascist duplicity. A while ago, pro eu criminals in Ukraine launched a brutally violent uprising against their elected pro Russian government. They won by force, with their elected leader fleeing in fear for his life. This wasconsidered acceptable. Then the pro Russian side countered. This was considered an outrage. Meanwhile the eu gives incentives to Russian aligned former Soviet countries to side with the eu, despite being populated by people that are more aligned to Russia, a nation which incidentally shouldn't even be an enemy of any kind if we could just get on, but somehow there's this whole either eu or Putin attitude. While the eu imposes sanctions on Russia, we keep buying their gas and joining them on both military and scientific ventures. The whole eu is just a massive farce. It has its benefits without doubt, but I can't decide whether my kids will grow up to thank me for voting one way or the other.
I think that, from the point of view of this topic, we seem to be digressing due to a misapprehension. The European Convention on Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU. It is a separate agreement that 47 countries have signed up to. It's the European Court of Justice that is run by the EU. So that's another topic that we can argue about another time.
I'm beginning to sound more and more like a Euro-sceptic but I'm still a fence sitter. What really pees me off is the misrepresentation of the government in things such as the document referred to above. Did any of you read it? It specifically emphasises the awkward side to Brexit (so what's new?) and tries to play down the real options. It states (and so does Cameron) that there's no way back if we exit. Wrong!!! Article 49 allows any State to apply for membership. The government paper also emphasises the difficulty of negotiating the exit (not hard to negotiate) and the concurrent negotiations for new agreements with the 'Single Market'. There's no doubt that some countries (some of our 'friends') would try to make this as difficult as possible, but Article 50 doesn't stop us agreeing individual trade agreements with any country whilst those negotiations are in progress. There aren't that many of the 27 that we have very significant trade with so there would not be so much to do. Meanwhile, we would still be able to trade, either under the current Single Market agreement in the first two years or under the World Trade Organisation agreement that we are signed up to. It's all there in the small print if you read the government paper, but it's glossed over very quickly. In the very small print (and I mean very small) is this:- "Trade agreements can be applied provisionally, before national ratification." For a number of long term members, they know that I'm a pedantic pain in the backside about contracts, small print etc. but I reckon very few people would have read that article that @MrsTea so kindly searched out. It's a very cleverly written paper that is completely biased without being untruthful - unless you use my definition of 'untruthful' (it's the intent of the message and not the message itself). There's no doubt there will be problems. A lot for big business, very little for small business and some difficult problems for individuals that the government will have to negotiate. For individuals, the main problems that pop into my head, are for those UK citizens living in the EU (could be a problem, or not, depending on the government negotiations), the need for Visas when travelling to EU countries -big deal (if no reciprocal agreement is reached), the definite need for health insurance when going on holiday (you should have that anyway). I'm sure that I'm going to get just as annoyed with the Brexit crowd as well! Time for a cuppa
Thanks, Shiney! I know that most people concentrate on matters that only affect themselves, but AFAIK you're the only person to have given even a moment's thought to the effect that a Brexit will have on the lives of thousands of Brits living in Europe. The gutter press love to portray us as wine-swilling, unpatriotic hedonists. For the most part, that is very far from being the truth. Retirees have already been hammered by withdrawal of the Winter Fuel Allowance, accomplished in the most disgustingly underhand fashion. We mostly live at the sharp end of fluctuating exchange rates. OK, we made the choice to leave, but not before paying our dues (and in many cases still doing so in the UK) but we based our decisions on facts as they were 'then'. The situation will become untenable for many who benefit from a reciprocal healthcare agreement at the moment. Worse, we are disenfranchised after 15 years. I believe convicted criminals retain the right to vote? There'll be three options for us: Return to UK and claim benefits, stay and live as best we can on handouts from charities and emergency healthcare only or apply for nationality in our country of residence...not always easy to obtain!
