Don't sit on the fence Amanda.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by roders, Oct 15, 2016.

  1. WeeTam

    WeeTam Total Gardener

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    Guys its easy to follow. Tax raised per head of population. England per head raises more than the rest. Ignore the black section on top of the Scotland column as its the n.s oil share which distorts the figures.
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        Thanks @WeeTam

        The problem comes when you start to analyse the chart.

        1. Tax raised doesn't necessarily equate (and almost certainly does not) to how much of the revenue is put back into the system.

        2. The tax revenue is based on per head of population. So if an area has a higher percentage of non tax producing population (such as refugees, asylum seekers, people on benefits, pensioners, students, higher density of hospitals, care homes, residential homes and nursing homes etc.) then the figures are totally distorted and cannot be compared.

        These figures, on their own, are useless as a guideline to what is happening.

        The local council used to phone me up to find out if I intended going to any of the open council meetings as they knew not to try and distort and bluff their way into getting what they wanted.

        I was quite happy to support genuine arguments but would really harass them if they weren't able to support their arguments.

        One incident that comes to mind was when they were putting forward a proposal to increase the car parking charges - again! They were able to produce correct figures to show that they were running at a loss although they had increased the prices the previous year. I asked them if they had analysed why their costs had gone up so much and they answered 'increased overheads'. So I asked for a breakdown of the overheads, which they tried to group into too few categories as far as I was concerned.

        I asked them whether they would like me to explain the breakdown in more detail and they couldn't very well say no. So I explained to the meeting that most of the large increase was because they had employed more people in the car parks. These people were employed to assist parkers with information, explain what parts of the car parks had more empty places and to have one man permanently in a box at the entrance and one at the exit. All explained as 'providing a better service'.

        I then asked the question that they couldn't answer. "Is it coincidence that all the car park staff are registered disabled and the number employed in them is the total number that you, as a large employer, must legally employ as a percentage of the workforce - and is it true that the law precludes you from categorising them all into one job sector?" "In effect, you are segregating them and discriminating against them!"

        They cancelled the proposal, found jobs for them that more suited their qualifications and did better in future to try and not pull the wool over the eyes of the public, press and some of the councillors.

        All this just goes to show that figures without full explanation can be very deceiving.

        I still have no idea about the economics of Scotland and whether they would be able to survive outside of the UK - and I have no interest in wasting my time doing all the research. :heehee:
         
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        • daitheplant

          daitheplant Total Gardener

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          Sorry butt? We have a population of just under 3m. Scotland, I believe, has just over 5m?
           
        • shiney

          shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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          This is why they list it as per head of population and not total revenue. It's the proper way to do it but they don't take anything else into account so it's completely useless on its own.

          For example (apart from all the waffle I added above) the tax revenues, per head of population, from Wales would be lower than that of London because the wages are lower. A simple example but it becomes much more complicated when trying to take in all the thousands of other factors.
           
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          • WeeTam

            WeeTam Total Gardener

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            " lies, damned lies, and statistics"

            Almost any data can be manipulated to attack/defend an argument.

            Lies are told about Scotland and lies are told to defend Scotland. This also applies to all countries around the world its just that we have to put up with more of it right now because of our ( UK ) inept politicians, our bent media, and by a minority of the population thats angry with life in the UK and feels the need to lash out and make cheap remarks at a minority portion of the UK.
             
          • clueless1

            clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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            With respect, what point are you trying to make? As far as I can see, this thread was started with a quote of an article in which a journalist mocked nicola Sturgeon. There was some debate centred around whether or not that journalist had a point, then we seemed to dive straight into a purely academic discussion about the validity or otherwise of statistics.
             
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            • WeeTam

              WeeTam Total Gardener

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              My point is...... cheap shots are being thrown about by journos who like to behave like radio shock jocks one minute and at the same time they want to be seen as serious unbiased journalists.

              Whilst banter is good fun I for one wont be sitting back and watching as ill informed posts are put up claiming " the Scots are ripping off the rest of the UK "
               
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              • roders

                roders Total Gardener

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                Wee Tam you have every right to be angry about journalists craving for cheap publicity making ill informed statements about your elected leader.
                I don't agree with all of her sentiments,but I respect her right to say it.
                Nicola has the unfortunate ability to create political controversy with her anti English stance.......feeding the hunger of journalists like Amanda Patell.
                That's life.
                 
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                • clueless1

                  clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                  I can't be sure, but I suspect that if someone was to ask a representative sample of UK residents to name a section of society that is ripping off the UK, I doubt that 'the Scots' would appear high on the list.

                  I actually think that higher up the list you'd get multinational corporations, politicians, some would add immigrants and some would say people on benefits. I don't think Scots would really be up there on a ranked list of people or groups that are ripping off the UK.

                  Of course some people might rightly note that somehow, Scotland can afford to offer free university places and free medicine when England can't. But that's a fairly trivial point in the grand scheme.

                  As an outsider (English man who's never even been to Scotland ), it seems to me that the only person propagating such a bizarre notion is Sturgeon. I think she is really destructive for both Scotland and the UK as a whole. I don't know one single person that has ever give me any indication that they harbour any ill feeling towards either Scotland the nation or the the people of it. Though lots of people I know, many who like to visit Scotland, have expressed some concern about growing anti-English sentiment in Scotland.

                  There have been comments along the lines that us English should be allowed to vote on whether we want Scotland. While such comments are likely to be in part fuelled by resentment at the apparent increase in anti-English sentiment in Scotland, equally it is surely fair that if someone wants to redefine the UK, the most populous member of it should be allowed a say.

                  Scotland had a referendum and voted to remain in the UK. Nothing has changed since then. It happened while David Cameron was in power, and one of Cameron's manifesto promises was that we'd have a referendum on EU membership. So the people of Scotland knew before voting to remain in the UK that the UK might vote to leave the EU, and they still voted in favour of remaining in the UK.

                  Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP is poison to the UK, and unfortunately for Scotland, the epicentre of the poisoning is in Scotland.

                  As I said earlier. Maybe it is just the natural time for Scotland to abandon the UK. If there is a lot of anti- UK sentiment there, then that resentment will just continue to ear away at the population until either everyone starts fighting amongst themselves, or they vote for independence. It has to be the people's choice. Let's just hope the people of Scotland are bright enough to realise that the SNP is basically just the Scottish UKIP.
                   
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                  • WeeTam

                    WeeTam Total Gardener

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                    I think Sturgeon is more anti Westminster rather than being anti English. But the establishment likes to label her as anti English as it deflects away from their innability to run Great Britain properly for the benefit of all rather than benefiting only the few .

                    Her land reform bill has really shaken the Lords, ladies, gentry and foreign estate owners.
                     
                  • clueless1

                    clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                    Who is 'all'? When I've heard her on question time and the likes, I've never heard say anything that makes me think she'd do anything for my benefit as an English person.
                     
                  • WeeTam

                    WeeTam Total Gardener

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                    I dont know where all this anti English nonsense is being found. Maybe if some journo goes into some dodgy pub on a Friday night the local drunken knuckledragger might be willing to come out with some anti english nonsense but thats about it.
                    I live p/t i n edinburgh and have done all my life. Areas of which are circa 25% Englis residents. Theres no anti anyone feeling in Edinburgh one of the most cosmopolitan cities you will ever find.

                    My folks live in the countryside in a village of 40 houses half of whom are owned by english folks,again no anti English nonsense there.

                    So again imho this anti english thing is in reality an anti westminster thing but that doesnt sell newspapers does it.

                    And finally the SNP is nothing like the UKIP party and you should know that in England UKIP does exceedingly well and in Scotland Ukip gets next to no votes.
                    Voting Snp doenst make you an English hater just like voting for Brexit didnt make the English voters racist European haters did it ? Or did it ?
                     
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                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                      Westminster is made up of MPs from all over the UK and I think she is one of them.
                      If she is not then there are 59 that are.
                       
                    • shiney

                      shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                      The media always stirs up a 'them and us' attitude. It sells papers. That's why I don't buy papers.
                       
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