Westminster today.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by "M", Mar 22, 2017.

  1. john558

    john558 Total Gardener

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    As someone said that Police Officer went to work today but won't be going home, so very sad.
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      Along with a few others.
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        True, pete, but the Police, like one or two other professions, open the door to go to work every day or night and place themselves into danger for everyone's sake. This particular Policeman died in the line of duty and Life for his family has changed as it has for the other two people fatally injured. The "others" went out of the door for an enjoyable day either at work or for leisure and, Yes, for those people things will never be the same again but, whatever you think of the Security Services, that Police Officer paid a high price for doing his duty, as our Service people have done.
         
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        • pete

          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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          Well the way I look at it is this, the security people know they have a choice and they know they are putting themselves between the criminal and the public.

          I'm not taking anything away from those people that do that job, but they all know it is part of the job.
          The general public just go to work and do their job, and dont expect to get mowed down by a car.

          No one persons life is worth more than any others is the way I see it;)
           
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          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            That I agree with, pete.


            True, but it takes a special kind of character and personal courage to do that.....and do it every day, in the face of hostility and lack of respect from some members of the Public.

            Knowing it, pete, and actually thinking it will happen are two different things. I was in the RAF and had people shoot and throw grenades at me but it wasn't something I thought of when I first joined, I wanted to be near aircraft and get them into the air In some of the War Documentaries you'll hear soldiers recount that they knew they might get killed but always thought it would happen to the next guy.
             
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            • clueless1

              clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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              There are a couple of things I'm struggling to understand that I'm sure will come out in time.

              1. An eye witness described seeing the murderer (that's all a terrorist is, not a freedom fighter, soldier or anything else, just a murderer) walk towards the police officer carrying what the witness thought was a stick. For a witness to see it from that distance, I wonder how come the murderer was able to get close enough to attack. I thought coppers were trained in disarm and restraint techniques. I know that not amount of training can guarantee an effective defence, but from what the witness described, it sounds like the police officer was not able to offer any resistance, and their colleagues were not able to assist quickly enough, which seems to indicate that somehow they were caught off guard. I don't understand how a witness could see the murderer approach from a distance, but the police could not.

              2. I thought stab vests were now standard kit for police officers. Again I know stab vests are of limited use, but I thought their whole purpose was to resist a knife attack long enough to give the wearer a chance to take defensive action.

              I'm sure the details will emerge as the investigation continues, it's just 2 of many things I don't understand.
               
            • ARMANDII

              ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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              It's much too early to wonder, speculate or try to understand anything in this incident, clueless.:dunno: There will be a very finely detailed investigation into the whole aspect, from personal details of the attacker, the car, every second of the incident but that will take time and great effort.
              Eye witnesses are renown for seeing things differently from some other eye witness at the scene. I have seen cases where eye witnesses differed so greatly that none of them were used in evidence.:dunno::doh: You or I were not there so trying to understand or get any sense is from media reports or anything else is futile.:coffee::snorky:
               
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              • CanadianLori

                CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                People are dead. It is an act of pure evil. No matter what the mental state of the killer.

                Tears for those families who lost a loved one. And those whose lives have been worsened. Forever.

                And over here, there is a motion in parliament to condemn Islamophobia. How can a government outlaw fear when it has so many foundations.

                Again, tears and heart felt anguish for those victims and their families.

                EDIT forgot to mention that we already have very comprehensive laws in place for crimes of hate. Physical or promotion o hate crime.
                 
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                  Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
                • clueless1

                  clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                  How can a government outlaw fear regardless of whether or not it has foundations?

                  Isn't it people's right to be fearful or suspicious of people from any group they wish?

                  I always thought the Canadian government was one of the most open minded and forward thinking governments on the world. I didn't realise they were as determined to control the minds of the masses as any supposedly religious state is.
                   
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                  • redstar

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                  • ARMANDII

                    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                    I don't quite see your point, clueless.:scratch::doh: The motion is to stop people from exploiting fears of Muslims by condemning Islamophobia.:dunno: It has nothing to do with trying to control the minds of the masses, while that can be said of the likes of Stalin, Mao tse tung, or Kim Jong-un. Religion has been used in the past in the UK to control it's population and by many other countries and it's the people using that religious belief to pursue their own agenda's that are to blame not the religion.:snorky:
                     
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                    • shiney

                      shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                      I listened to that witness explain what he saw. He didn't say that he walked towards the policeman but said he ran towards the Palace of Westminster. The policeman that attempted to stop him was unarmed but still tried to do his duty and stop him. As it was his duty to do so he had no choice about whether he could allow the murderer to get close enough to attack. He was there to stop him entering the building. Not all the policeman on duty there are armed and, unfortunately, the nearest one wasn't. He managed to delay him long enough for one of the armed officers to shoot the murderer before he got into the building. The witness said that he was shot within twenty seconds of the attack upon the policeman.
                       
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                      • clueless1

                        clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                        What does that even mean?

                        What is 'Islamophobia'? It sounds like some pseudo medical term for irrational fear of (phobia) Islam.

                        How do you condemn an irrational fear?

                        I suffer a bit with arachnophobia. Will my irrational fear of spiders go away if the government decides to condemn my fear? Or will I just have to never admit to anybody ever that spiders make me uncomfortable and I can't explain why?

                        In the UK, my arachnophobia is very irrational. There are no species of spider here that pose a significant threat. But what if, for every thousand spiders that probably live somewhere on my house, one was determined to kill me. 999 just want to coexist peacefully, but 1 wants me dead, and is crazy enough and capable enough to do it. Would my fear still be irrational then?

                        I should at this point reiterate a point of have made many times when this awkward subject comes up. That is that I recognise that Islam itself does not encourage violence and most Muslims are peaceful ordinary people. I don't want anyone to suffer 'Islamophobia'. But equally when people are becoming so increasingly uneasy in such increasing numbers about what is happening in the name of Islam, I think it's pretty dumb of us to first deny there's a problem, and then try to suppress it by banning thought.
                         
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                        • shiney

                          shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                          Although I agree with your sentiment, and literal meaning of what you describe, I think that the recognised meaning of the word is that some people are taking the hatred of those terrorists who follow Islam as a hatred towards all followers of Islam.

                          That is different from actual fact and I'm not sure that a lot of people that profess, or are demonstrated, to have Islamophobia actually have it. A lot of them are probably pandering to their existing prejudices or already have irrational (or non-logical) thoughts in their approach to a lot of things.

                          There is nothing wrong with having a rational fear of terrorists but this needs to be tempered by using some logic in not applying it to everyone who appears to follow Islam. It has been shown that there are now some rather nasty accusations of men who have large beards because people think they are Moslems (has happened in the town near me). Now, that is irrational!
                           
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                          • clueless1

                            clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                            Surely that's covered by existing race discrimination laws.
                             
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