Brexit - am I stupid or what?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by PeterS, Dec 16, 2017.

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  1. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    I am still firmly of the mind that it is now only a matter of time before there is some sort of calling off or another vote. The only reason they are currently farting around is to hold it out long enough so that it doesn't look obvious that was their intent from day 1 - only, to anyone with eyes that has failed and that is exactly what it looks like.

    And still, I have no idea what is so good about being in the EU?
     
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    • shiney

      shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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      I'm not getting into the debate but I'm not sure what the person who tweeted underneath May's tweet is getting at when he says the government is using state institutions to spread false information. I, admittedly, know nothing about Twitter and how things work but they seem to be quoting the fsb which is the Federation of Small Businesses - not a government institution. Or are they referring to something else? :scratch:
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        The problem is, at the moment, that the EU is only offering an agreement where NI and the UK remain in the Customs Union for an indefinite period rather than a defined limited period. Either proposal is a dead end, as should we say "that's it, we're out of the Customs Union" in a years or ten years time we'll be back in exactly the same situation where we are now with the EU wanting a hard border in Ireland and sticking to an indefinite period in the Custom Union. Staying in the Customs Union means we have, in effect, not left the EU as we will have to obey the EU rules and bow to the European Courts of Justice. The only change will be that, under the rules of Article 50, should we stay in the Customs Union for any period we will not have any say or vote in the EU. I think that the UK has been painted into a corner and the scenario of a hard Brexit some time in the future is looking more logical.
         
      • Freddy

        Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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        What are the implications for the Irish border of a ‘Hard Brexit’? A hard border I imagine?
         
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        • pete

          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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          I'm getting really confused now, as I thought the EU didn't want a hard border with NI?
          I was under the impression that it was the DUP and Southern Ireland that didn't want a border.

          The words, "back stop" mean absolutely nothing to me, (the back stop is the far end one on the saw bench :biggrin::biggrin:) but it keeps being quoted, and apparently May signed up to it a while ago in the negotiations.
          As it was what the EU wanted, no hard border in NI.
           
        • ARMANDII

          ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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          They don't, pete, but they're using the threat of it to force the UK to stay in the Customs Union for as long as they can.:dunno::coffee: There's a lot of double bluffing, kicking the can down the road, having the negotiations termed as "positive and close to agreement" and the next "stalled and no sign of any agreement"

          May "signed up" for a "backstop" only in principle not to any definite plan. It's principally a device that a soft border in Ireland is paid for by NI having to remain, in effect, forever in the Customs Union and the EU.....which splits a member of the UK from the others. The DUP don't want to be split from the UK but would like a soft border, the EU doesn't really care about a totally insignificant, (apologies to NI), border but it's a very useful weapon to have and create a barrier to BREXIT.
           
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          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            Exactly that, Freddy. But borders are man made and a state of mind. So even if it came to a hard border I'm pretty sure the Irish will find a practical way around it.:coffee::snorky:
             
          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            Surely anyone can understand if we are not apart of the EU there will have to be proper borders, I thought that was the whole point in leaving.
             
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            • Freddy

              Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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              In good faith...
              As I see it, it’s a total mess. Not one political party is united behind a course of action, and even if there was, it wouldn’t get a majority in the commons, so a general election would probably get us nowhere. So, as I see it, we either crash out by default, or there has to be another referendum based on a solid (doable) outcome.
               
            • ARMANDII

              ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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              Sounds nice, logical, and the thing to do, longk:love30:. But, I think, that May, or whoever, perhaps big "G" himself, could not bring any deal/proposal to the Commons table where every MP would stand up, shake hands with all the members of the other parties and cry with joy in agreement......it ain't going to happen.:dunno::snorky: If you strip out all the shenanigans, lying, bluffing, biases, political posturing, historical dislikes of different countries, and the Federal ambitions of an unelected group of officious bureaucrats and just go by the Referendum vote question........

              [​IMG]

              The question is simple and stark:dunno:. There's no question there in the form that asks "what sort of deal would you like on leaving the EU?" That's the basic and essential nub of the question and basically implies a Hard Brexit without any political dust being thrown up into the air.
              So, to me, the question was, and still is, "Do you wanna leave or don't cha'". The vote was to Leave cut and dried, whether you agree with it or not:dunno:
               
            • Freddy

              Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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              • ARMANDII

                ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                You haven't been taking your Blue Pills or wearing that GC special jacket again, Freddy:heehee:. Do you think there is a "doable" solution out there or that you could recommend anyone who can sit in the UK negotiating team and get the EU to nod in agreement and then come back and get the narrow minded, well paid idiots in the House of Commons to agree to it:scratch:
                 
              • Fat Controller

                Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                And that Freddy, is exactly the outcome that the EU and the government wanted. Get us back to the polls having battered our brains for months, then the result changes and hey presto we are allowed to stay in the EU. We will have to pay an additional £5bn a year, but it will be worth it........ right??

                Oh, and one of the first votes that our elected leaders will have to take part in is the renaming of the EU, with the suggested new name being "Hotel California"
                 
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                • pete

                  pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                  No one actually knows the implications even now at this late stage, it is still only supposition and always will be from both sides.
                  I dont profess to be intelligent but after seeing years of the EU meddling in the UK, and lots more looming in the future I vote out.
                  I know the outcome is uncertain, but so is staying in.
                  Some time you just have to bite the bullet and go for something new, as personally the EU has not done me any favours in the last 40 odd years.
                  I'd definitely make a point of voting in another referendum, should there be one, and it would still be "out" , this club seems more difficult to leave than a drugs gang, not that I've tried that either:biggrin:.
                  But I'm sure it is all about money, if we were Greece, just as an example, I doubt it would be quite this difficult.:smile:
                   
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                  • Freddy

                    Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                    It seems evident to me that ‘Brexit’ is becoming a vague (blurred) notion among the politicians. They just can’t handle it. I think that one has to look at past deals for a way ahead, for a “doable” deal. That said, a ‘Remain’ option should be included, imo. Why? It’s my belief that ‘folks’ don’t want it anymore (majority).
                     
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