Brexit -am I stupid or what

@Fat Controller - I agree that there was too many Brexit ministers but frankly they were all useless towards anyway. There was a fifth of decent candidates in truth, maybe Rory Stewart would have been a decent choice?
As for that clip, no context means no meaning, especially from such a biased source.
In the EU election no deal parties got 35% of the vote, parties who endorse a second vote got 35% of the vote! It was the fence sitters (Labour and the tories) who got wiped out. So the nation offered up no clear indication whatsoever.
Taxation? We have one of the lowest overall rates of taxation and another uncommonly low rate of income tax among developed nations. All the extra taxes are optional - if you spend you pay. The more you spend the more you pay. As I've said before petrol tax has historically been high in the UK for over one hundred years. Nothing new.

 

The trouble is @Fat Controller that if a policy/law costs someone money they will deem it unfair or unpalatable. But that's life, nowt's for free. And sometimes people need a kick up the butt to help themselves. As a smoker I accept that I should be taxed to buttery in the same way that I did when I was a drinker. Libbie and I accept that we pay more tax because of what we earn but there are others who would say that I could have bought a new car with that instead. Modern people are basically self centred.

 

Well, if the “experts” were right we would already be in a mess.
Thus, yes, the UK is thriving despite the hapless politicians

 

YES, because the people are now informed and ‘the people’s will’ has changed.

 

It is harsh but I remember Oxford (let alone London) in the eighties and it was foul. My godfather was over from NZ last summer and was surprised how much cleaner the air (and the buildings) was. ULEZ deffo needs tweaking for those on low income and I find the exemption of historic vehicles perverse.

On the whole yes. Everything in life could be better and the same goes for how our taxes are spent but what we have here compared to others is good. I could run things better, as could you no doubt along with everyone else on this forum, but on the whole we are lucky. Now I appreciate that it is easy to say that if you are more comfortable financially (and I for one can remember raiding the copper jar for a packet of fags in the past), and I appreciate that it easy to say that if I can wander around at night without fear, but on the whole we are lucky and reasonably well served. I would prefer it if my taxes weren't wasted on things like maternity and paternity leave, the House Of Commons refit, HS2 and spent elsewhere instead but as Dennis Healy once said, government is no place for principles and ideology, it is about compromise.

As above really. They are there and by and large they work. Not perfectly but compare it to the US for example. The gap between rich and poor grows, food banks are becoming an essential community resource and that should not be but imagine the outcry if taxes went up to pay for it.

These are historic issues. The railways dating back to Beeching and the roads to the latter years of Thatcher.

Yup. That is what happens when services are privatised. If they can operate at a profit they can be run by the state/local authority that efficiently as well for less or get more for the same.

At any given time the NHS is said to be on its knees. Always has been, always will be in the eyes of the people. Yet it does perform wonders.
The problem is that people will insist on living longer, that people have become medic botherers over every little thing, that new techniques require investment if they are to be offered and that there are still too many damned chiefs. Thank god for the immigrants who prop it up I say.

And in our day they weren't? Jeez, we sat there with no heating, a bucket in the corner to catch rainwater, windows that didn't open, lockers with doors falling off, broken chairs, thirty year old paint, bog paper that merely moved the poop residue around yer bum cheeks rather than cleaning, cold showers, do I need to go on? And this was in an affluent town in the era of Thatch! They are a darned site better now. A bit of discipline would help and a higher bar as far as results would negate the UK need to import skilled better educated workers from abroad but there you go, we don't want to put the little treasures under too much pressure.

I agree. God bless Thatch for having a dream!

I daren't even start here for fear of offence. It's a toughie though. The reliance on private providers needs to go, and then maybe adopt the Logans Run model Does anyone have any less unsavoury ideas? People survive longer, be it into old age or longer than they may have done as a result of medical conditions or trauma. Care costs.

Yes. But why? Is it a lack of investment in them, social conditions, social attitudes, lack of parental guidance or what. Is it as a result of not enough tax revenue being spent or other factors. The modern way of expecting everything now maybe? Peer pressure? Image? Lack of effective deterent in the justice system?

Well praise the lord for that! And we'll have cross rail too!
But then five minutes ago we were moaning about the state of public transport and the railways! But far less important in my opinion than getting the basics right. Especially as we've just spent the weekend in the Netherlands where it all works together, planes trains and buses.

Christ, I dread your idea of recession! It is keeping its head above water, but not thriving.

Are you suggesting that a few enlightened souls may have worked out that Boris, Nigel and their chums lied to them!

 

Whatever is said 50% of folks will disagree. It’s the nature of the beast.
Everybody ...everybody..I have spoken to about brexit has maintained the same view as 3 years ago. The second vote will be close, too hard to call whatever anyone says. If the vote goes the other way there will still be unrest, maybe even more so than now.
Europe is notorious for having 2 or 3 referenda until the powers that be get the vote they want!
Nobody knows what will happen if we leave the EU. Wild speculation often based on hype and scare mongering that’s all.
Remember, there was great dissatisfaction within the UK about the EU.....open borders, the money we were paying in, the way EU laws over rule our own, etc.

 

Maybe we should only let clever people vote?

Wouldn't half save a lot of problems.

 

Smilies on the end always meant tongue in cheek but sorry if I offended anyone.
I will not take back what I said about the lies that they told though. Even Peter Oborne, a long time and almost fanatical Brexiteer has now said the same................

"The Brexiteers made a succession of claims about leaving the EU that have turned out to be untrue."

"They made exaggerated and false claims about British finances after Brexit. They used illegal methods, and their funding was obscure. If the Brexit referendum had been a general election the Brexiteers would have been chucked out of office."

I posted that link before but nobody bothered to read it or chose not to comment because it was uncomfortable reading. The fact is that whilst the charges against the remain campaign were that they only offered negative quotes and references (admittedly from respected sources) it is only the Brexit campaign that has been shown to have lied and (at best) misrepresented the truth. For Mr Oborne to actually swallow his pride and say that he was wrong on the very thing that has largely built his career of late is quite something.
So when a Brexiteer says no problem we leave with no deal and we trade under WTO rules they neglect to mention that there are problems. Our schedule has to be formally submitted then the 160 odd member states have three months to consider and then if they want raise objection. If needs be it is then debated and negotiated. WTO rules also restrict subsidies for agriculture etc.

Anyway, if any offence was caused I apologise. Please note that I never set out to be insulting nor called anyone a snowflake if they were offended (as I understand that would be against the rules as a Remainer )

 

Although I pressed agree it wasn't because I think that it should only be "clever" people but I do believe that the issue was far too complex for those of us without a specialist understanding of the question.

As an aside this mornings Reith Lecture on Radio 4 made some interesting points on the referendum..............

BBC Radio 4 - The Reith Lectures, 2019: Jonathan Sumption, 2/5. In Praise of Politics

 

There's no answer to that, the bloke lives in a tiny world totally devoid of reality.
Perhaps he should get a proper job.
Must admit I only listened to the first 5 minutes.

I then carried on watching some paint dry.

 

So what your saying is people have voted to leave and are sticking by it because the government said that they should have voted to remain?

But it's ok that the likes of Mogg, Farage, Johnson et al are saying to leave so that is who people agree with. The term establishment is banded about all over yet I think these lot suit that a lot more and say for example all the scientists at universities.

For the environmental part of your post, I'm not sure if you are aiming that at EU green policies. But I'm sure they will be a factor and unfortunately, it's crap, but we are all going to have to do our bit. If this guy loses out on his xtrail for the sake of there being less pollution that fair enough, big diesels are on the way out the same way as leaded fuel was. That is a big problem for me too since I tow a caravan. It would be nice if someone could come up with a way of making these cars greener though, fitting an extra catalytic converter or soot collector or something like that, even at the expense of a bit of power.

The bit about the NHS sits solely 100% with the Tory austerity policy. The EU has nothing to do with that, yet it is somehow blamed for it.