Electric cars.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by pete, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    BBC article here on recycling of the batteries and the challenges that lie ahead - Electric cars: What will happen to all the dead batteries?

    The thing that stands out for me is the figure of only 5% of batteries overall being recycled. That is frighteningly low, especially as this technology is being lauded asa the saviour of us all.

    Covid has seen many countries short of medicinal oxygen - why do we not have a process where water is split into oxygen and hydrogen? Hydrogen can be used as fuel, even if some of that fule is burned and turned back into electricity, and any of it that is used in road vehicles would see only water emitted at the tailpipe.
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      :ideaIPB::ideaIPB:We could all have water butts on trailers behind our cars to collect the water, which we could all use to water our gardens.:biggrin:
       
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      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        If you made the water butts bigger but shallower you could let your passengers use it as a Jacuzzi :thumbsup: :hapydancsmil:
         
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        • Fat Controller

          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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          Or, you could pipe it to shower jets and fit the back seats with bidets.... we could call them 'jacksie-taxis'
           
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          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            Ok, its gone far enough.:roflol:
             
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            • Black Dog

              Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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              Chemistry Master here. That is because it is a lot easier to get oxygen by cooling down the air around us. This also gives us liquid nitrogen which is by far the more useful in lots of industrial processes.

              Hydrogen is gained mainly by cracking methane (natural gas, CH4) with hot steam into CO2 and Hydrogen. So basically it burns fossil fuels.

              Thirdly Hydrogen is a real bitch to work with. It has the smallest atoms of all the chemical elements and is able to diffuse though lots of materials that are water- and airtight. Combined with a really low boiling point end tendency to violently explode with trace amounts of it being present in the air it's a real challenge to store and transport it. If people have reservations against BEV because "they burn easily" (which has been busted lots of times), how would they feel about a car where the tiniest of leaks could cause a major explosion?

              Regarding the recycling of batteries. Really? This coming from the guys using the "good old glyphosate" to kill weeds and used motor oil to paint the fences?
              One of the main reasons there aren't many recycling plants around yet are because electric cars by themselves are pretty new. Most haven't even reached the end of life after being purchased in the last 5 years or so - which is what the BBC report you quoted says.
              And the old car batteries make excellent stationary power storages because they are "used up" when the capacity falls below a certain point (typically around 70%).
              Doesn't mean they are dead yet.
               
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                Last edited: May 4, 2021
              • NigelJ

                NigelJ Total Gardener

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                Large scale hydrogen in cars is probably a non starter due to the problems outlined by @Black Dog Another interesting thing is that some metals become brittle after contact with hydrogen (hydrogen embrittlement).
                There are trials going ahead with hydrogen distribution through existing gas mains either with methane or alone, boilers will need new burners as a minimum.
                Hydrogen can also be generated by electrolysis of water giving hydrogen and oxygen, the electricity can come from solar cells or wind generators. The hydrogen and oxygen can then be stored on site and used to generate electricity at times of peak demand.
                Hydrogen can also be generated directly from water by photocatalysis, gradually getting more efficient and cheaper.
                Liquid nitrogen is another possible storage medium for excess electricity as it can be produced, stored and then used to drive a generator. See here Articles - INNOVATION WATCH - Delivering clean cold and power for one approach.
                 
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                • pete

                  pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                  Anyone remember the Hindenburg :yikes:
                  Where's @shiney when you need him. :biggrin:
                   
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                  • shiney

                    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                    Yoohoo! @pete :biggrin:

                    I remember it well. Thursday will be the anniversary of its demise :sad: It happened in Manchester :rolleyespink:
                     
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                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                      That must have been a different one :biggrin:
                       
                    • Jiffy

                      Jiffy The Match is on Fire

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                      If battery's had rare metals in side them, they will soon be recycled
                       
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                      • shiney

                        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                        Nope! It was Manchester, New Jersey :heehee:
                         
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                        • NigelJ

                          NigelJ Total Gardener

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                          They do have scarce metals in them that are difficult and can be environmentally damaging to extract and purify.
                           
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                          • Black Dog

                            Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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                            Then you should hope for Hydrogen fuel cell powered cars. They use substantial amounts of platinum and palladium to catalyse the reaction. That's one point why the are so very expensive.

                            Luckily crude oil is easily extracted, widely available and environmentally friendly. And since every country has easy access, there wouldn't be any wars fought about it... ;)

                            But honestly, what kind of rare elements are you talking about? Lithium? It's on rank 4 of the most common elements in the earths crust. It's just that nobody ever saw any use for it before. So production capacities wer kind of low at the start of the EV boom. Secondly there is steel (duh) , aluminium (dito), Copper, plastic and computer chips. All stuff that's used in traditional cars as well.
                            Only difficult things are cobalt, but it's not used anymore in newer Generation EVs.:dunno:
                             
                          • NigelJ

                            NigelJ Total Gardener

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                            @Black Dog you are quite right lithium is not rare and neither are the others. There are supply and demand issues due to the sheer amount of lithium, copper and nickel that will be required.
                            As for hydrogen fuel cells these use a lot less in the way of precious metals than even 20 years ago.
                            All these things will be worth recycling at the end of their life.
                             
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