Electric cars.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by pete, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. roders

    roders Total Gardener

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    I had my Vauxhall serviced recently and was asked if I would like to try their electric Mokka.
    It was fun ,very quiet ,smart dashboard ,horrible colour.
    Then I was told the price £32.000
    Not worth it at all..........so it’s a no from me until the price drops considerably.

    ECE9E170-F68C-4A6F-9EC9-9D71AF44A41E.jpeg
     
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    • Kristen

      Kristen Under gardener

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      Depends on your mileage ... although I am guessing yours is not that of a travelling salesman :)

      And my mileage isn't what it was, as I am sure you can guess :) but back then I was around 35K miles a year and that cost around 2p a mile for juice, and close to nothing for service (wipers and tires was about it). So somewhere around £700 a year for 35K miles instead of £3,500 - £7,000 to drive a thirsty fossil.

      I expect that Vauxhall is fair bit cheaper than whatever the equivalent was 3 years earlier ... so hopefully in 3 years time you'll be biting the salesman's arm off ... or something like that! And hopefully they will have British Racing Green instead of Chuck Up Green to offer you. Maybe even White ...

      I replaced mine at 3+ years, it had done 95K miles, and I bought like-for-like, which was 20% cheap and battery went 20% further ... I reckon that price drop will continue with more economies of scale and improvements to the mechanicals. The Ioniq and Kona look very impressive - nudging 5 miles per kWh, and a night rate of 5p a unit can be had fairly readily, so that's on the 1p-a-mile mark.
       
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      • clanless

        clanless Total Gardener

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        That's the problem with electric cars - they are too quiet.

        Everyone is use to the sound of a combustion engine - its noise acts as a warning signal and puts people on alert that a car is nearby. Everyone walking around staring down at their 'phones and a quiet electric car - the perfect storm...
         
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        • Kristen

          Kristen Under gardener

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          ... with their headphones in their ears <sigh>
           
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          • Fat Controller

            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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            Therein lies the problem - I personally wouldn't even consider a Mokka with a petrol/diesel engine as I just don't like them, so the though of £32k for one sends me running for the hills. My current one cost half that with 19k miles on the clock and even that is on a PCP deal as there is no other way I could afford it. I do like the Jaguar i-Pace, but at £65k upwards, that is just the stuff of dreams..... so therein lies the problem with electric cars currently.
             
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            • pete

              pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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              New cars of any description are out of my price range these days, electric ones especially and I've never seen the point of a hybrid.
              So, I'm in a dilemma, do I keep my 7 yr old Ford focus with 60k on the clock and wait until a second hand, worn out battery operated electric effort becomes within my price range, or buy something a bit newer now that will last me until I'm too old to drive.

              By which time I'm guessing anything that creates and emission while moving, instead of one that does so while charging up, will be banned in most town centres.
               
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              • Victoria

                Victoria Lover of Exotic Flora

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                We have two cars, one is 17 years old, the other nearly 24. We have no plans on changing ... unless we find a Chevrolet El Caminho then the Kia Estate will go ...

                [​IMG]

                ... and we will have an even older car ..
                .:heehee:
                 
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                • Kristen

                  Kristen Under gardener

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                  No first hand experience, but second hand Leaf/similar with knackered-ish battery for running around, and something else for trips, might be an option for some. I haven't looked recently, might have changed, but 2nd had Leaf was "dirt cheap"

                  Even hiring a Fossil for trips. That's not going to be any good unless "trips" is only a couple of times a year. (Not certain, but I think sale of new Leaf comes with 2x Fossil hire a year)

                  I think you are spot on that if you replace with Fossil now you will be penalised during ownership - both increasing cost (fuel / road tax) and also banned or charged significant "Entrance fee" to towns.

                  But its a good thing. I wouldn't want to be living, particularly with young kids, in one of those houses right next to aerial through-town roads (such houses might be a good investment though - non-polluting, quiet, vehicles coming real-soon-now ...)

                  Anyone able to have two cars and keep a Fossil for trips, and Electric for the rest, would be doing the planet a favour I reckon. We did that initially until electric got to the point of covering our needs, but we have spent a kings ransom to be in that position.

                  Original EV, 5 years ago, was 240-ish real-world miles 100%-0% (realistically 10%-80% refuel interval, so drive-charge-drive was 170 miles between stops) and I had an out-of-range day a couple of times a month. Now with 300 mile range (motorway speed) out-of-range charging is only a couple of times a year, and now we have driven to Alps electric and would not have done that before (that's just my refuelling-stop-time tolerance, others have done it in 100 mile range EVs, and others would not contemplate it with my 30 minute stop every 2.5 hours ...)

                  I reckon this can go two ways ...

                  1. Norway-style. Provide government money to make-it-happen. I think Norway is 0% VAT on EVs, but it might be there are other inducements too. They have both Hydro electrics and a Sovereign Wealth Fund, from their North Sea Oil profits (ironically) to put to that use. Sale of pure Fossil (Petrol / Diesel, non-hybrid) is now under 10% of new cars. Good quality charging is (now) everywhere

                  2. Tax the polluter to force the punter to change.

                  Of course our government has done neither. They have taken away the subsidy on "expensive" EVs. Whilst I don't think rich barstewards should get handouts, sadly some of them won't buy without them, and a high mileage travelling salesman is not a R.B. ... but absolutely needs the "range" model which is, now, in the "not subsidised" price bracket. So the most polluting drivers have no incentive to change. And the net effect of this is to reduce new EV purchase ... and, more crucially in my mind, the availability of cheaper, 2nd hand, hand-me-downs in 3+ years time just at the time when everything takes off

                  The "Fuel Escalator" specifically introduced a decade or more to raise Fossil Fuel prices annually and "force the pace" has very noticeably NOT been increased for a half dozen years or more.

                  Oh ... our government has done something:

                  Move the deadline closer for the ban on sales of Fossil cars ...

                  ... whilst providing no inducement either way.

                  J.C. on a bike ...

                  I have a simple viewpoint on this. We have had the good times, there is now a retrospective "tax" coming to pay for the mess we made and my Range Rover School-Run Driving mates are doing diddly-squat (well, Mrs K says they've stopped inviting us to dinner because I spend so much of the evening haranguing them!)

                  So the K-Solution, being all we are left with?, is to be to embarrass them into submission. I think I'll put up a sign at the gate "EV's only" and then a "Fossils" sign to the muddy field opposite ... no invitations to dinner, no visitors either!
                   
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                    Last edited: May 22, 2021
                  • shiney

                    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                    We have two 'fossils' here :old: - and two petrol cars. :roflol: We shall be keeping them for a good 10 years or more yet. Our burning of petrol is now very low since the pandemic. Mrs Shiney's has done no more than 200 miles in the last 15 months (my mower uses more petrol!) and mine is down from 9,000 miles to under 5,000 miles (used to be 21 - 14k 20 years ago).

                    Which? did an analysis of the cost for charging electric cars if you aren't able to do so at home and they found it was not much cheaper than petrol/diesel. :rolleyespink:
                     
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                    • Fat Controller

                      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                      How many folks struggle to afford to own and run one car let alone have a knackered Leaf for shorter runs and another ICE for longer runs though? That is also before you get to the other very simple fact that the vast majority of folks wouldn't want a Leaf as a coffin, let alone be seen driving one. Nissan didn't capitalise fully on the Leaf nor did it broaden it's EV tech quickly enough in my opinion and now they are considerably behind the curve - I personally believe that this is a legacy of being held back by their group (Renault/Daimler/Mitsubishi) as investment monies have been too widely spread.

                      I still maintain the game changers are going to be the Koreans here - take a look at the Hyundai Ioniq 5 for example. Sure, it is similar money to the Mokka mentioned earlier, but it has a bit more kerb-appeal - don't get me wrong, we need cars such as the electric Mokka and Corsa as well as a market saturation is the only way prices are going to stabilise and also for that cycle of three-yearly vehicle replacement to also establish. That £35k Ioniq at three years old now being £14k looks a whole lot more palatable.

                      Peugeot seem to be doing quietly well in the area (hence, the Vauxhalls by relation) and Citroen appear to also have some interesting ideas coming, particularly through their DS brand. Volvo are very well placed thanks to their parent company and relatives (London Taxis, Polestar) and JLR also seem to be doing remarkably well (there is an irony there, given their history with electrical gremlins) - BMW and VAG also seem further on than Mercedes (Daimler group again)

                      However, aside from cleaner air in towns and cities, anyone who believes that these vehicles are more environmentally friendly overall is deluded - they simply have a different footprint that is rearranged to keep it away from our doorsteps.
                       
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                      • Kristen

                        Kristen Under gardener

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                        yes, good point. Definitely a Gold Star to anyone dedicated enough to have EV without off road home charging.

                        All good points FC ...

                        I don't know the answer - but I know plenty of people who could make an effort to [and can definitely afford to] be more green and aren't doing so. I have no idea what they think they are waiting for ... I ungraciously assume "handouts".

                        "No raindrop thought it caused the flood"

                        :roflol: .. excellent point. "Other Brands Are Available"

                        I agree. I don't have an artistic bone in my body, so can't tell if Ioniq is better looking than say, me!! but plenty tell me they like the look (for avoidance of doubt "Of the Ioniq" :) )

                        But I do have an opinion on the technical side and on that I think the Ioniq is superb. No idea why or how, but they must have done research /whatever and then gone on to get it right.

                        I Googled the Cd and Miles-per-kWh (real world rather than marketing-speak / useless "government test" results :) )

                        Cd / Miles-per-kWh

                        0.23 / 4.4 - 4.8 Tesla Model 3 (LR - SR)
                        0.288 / 4.5 Ioniq 5

                        So Ioniq has worse Cd and better/equivalent "MPG" ...

                        I think VW "ID" range is going to be a good solution too. They have done ground-up design, rather than chuck Motor and Battery into existing frame, and looks like the resulting "skateboard" is going to be the right one. The VW doesn't excite on any front, but ticks every box ... which is a pretty good starting point for many.

                        You don't mention Renault? They've been in the EV game a long time, and whilst I have no personal experience I get the impression that the Zoe is a good contender.

                        I think the iPace is an excellent car. But sales don't seem to have reflected that (is my viewpoint out of date??)

                        I think BMW is behind the curve. The i3 was a good'un, and the lawn-mower-engine "range extender" option was a good solution for its time. But what since then? seems like mostly silence to me

                        I think Merc is doing well. The EQx range is extremely well soundproofed, taking advantage of the already quiet drive train. Pretty good range too. Big commitment from the company - lots of future models look to be both coming-soon and promising.

                        But over all I think VW ID will be the star ... and in the VAG group they have other EV experience to share - Porsche Taycan is technically excellent but different (e.g. Regen is on the brake pedal, not throttle lift-off), and the approach of Audi (Thirsty, Poor range, but very fast charging) is a different technical approach to that of the much more frugal VW ID, and sharing all those difference knowledges must reap some benefit for the next-generation VAG EVs

                        (Of course wonderfully fast charging is only any good if there are actually any wonderfully fast chargers to stop at ... our Government lagging there too)

                        I would challenge your "simply" there :)

                        My view is that (whilst not cutting the EV any "slack" per se) we need to consider how things will be when the EV industry has matured and taking into account the loud PR-Voice of the Oil industry, which seeks to obfuscate things and hide the true cost of getting Oil from Well-to-Wheel.

                        For example recent EU government-financed research into how battery recycling will be, once that industry has "matured", found that a car like mine, which has a tonne of battery (literally), will need about 20Kg of freshly mined material to recycle it into a new battery as compared to an ICE using about 20 tonnes of refined fuel for a 150,000 mile lifetime - excluding energy/emissions for drilling, transportation, refining, and making it available at the forecourt.

                        There's a good YouTube on "Well-to-Wheel" comparison EV vs ICE by Fully Charged, narrated by Robert Llewellyn, for anyone interested.
                         
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                        • shiney

                          shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                          Everyone:- Pick your own answer :dbgrtmb: :roflol:
                           
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                          • Fat Controller

                            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                            Renault have slipped behind thanks to their dalliances with Nissan/Mercedes/Mitsubishi - in my opinion no brand in that group is a winner as the intention to share all that is good has also seen the corner cutting also shared - back that up with Mercedes highly questionable customer service, Renault's dwindling dealer network and Mitsubishi's current identity crisis.... then lob in Dacia just for fun. The Zoe and the Wind (who dreams these names up??) had potential, but as is always the case for Renault they couldn't market them for toffee (Philips were a company very similar)

                            JLR have two issues as I see it - firstly and the biggest of all is ability to supply in a decent time. Their dealers are the epitome of hit and miss, if you get a good one you have struck gold, but otherwise you are either going to be ignored or be in for a fight. Secondly, major reliability issues with the Range Rover (particularly the Evoke) brand really dented them - you cannot take circa £80k from a customers pocket for something that goes faulty on a frequent basis, then treat that customer like the enemy and expect them to come back to you for their next car.

                            Mercedes may well have quiet cabins, but unless they have sacked the majority of their dealers and massively improved quality again I would not be near them - they are essentially very expensive Renaults.

                            BMW will always be BMW - you buy those for the badge.

                            VAG - liars, charlatans and cheats. Dieselgate will haunt them for a long time.

                            Interesting to see that that real world MPG on the Ioniq is up there with the Tesla - the price tags most certainly are not aligned, so that would bear out my thoughts that the Korean brands are the ones to watch. They have developed an understanding of quality that the Chinese brands don't currently have consistently. Tesla, well I wouldn't buy one on principle (even if I did have the money) purely because Musk is a pillock of the highest order.

                            Interesting that you have done the usual EV owner thing and failed to take into account the electricity used when quoting figures about recyclability etc; yes, an ICE car will use tons of oil in its lifetime, but an electric car doesn't run on fairy farts - that power has to come from somewhere, and in this country that could very well be Drax.... and if ever there was a demonstration of unintended consequences, that should be it.

                            I am not down on EV's - they definitely have their place and can make towns and cities better but let's not have them painted as environmental saviours because they are not. You cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs.
                             
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                            • pete

                              pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                              One of my big wonders is when are the government going to slap the tax on the electricity that you use to charge.
                              Is it metered separately?
                              If not how will they do it, via smart meters maybe?

                              Once we all stop driving fossil cars, where will those billions be collected from.
                               
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                              • Kristen

                                Kristen Under gardener

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                                Can't find the dislike button ... :)
                                 
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