I think the definition of poverty will be a factor in how those statistics play out, and there is no denying that poverty does play a very significant part in adverse and criminal behaviours, however those same statistics are often distorted (deliberately) so as to avoid addressing the issues of cultural differences. In some cases, police were instructed to stop recording the ethnicity of those being arrested (such as in Rochdale) to prevent any accusations of racism. Having data/statistics is all well and good - but, when that data has been deliberately skewed by omission. it is less than useless.
So what happened in a Rochdale was wrong from end to end: groups of Muslim men abusing children - with plenty of non-Muslim British guys involved too of course. With impunity. The unbelievably inadequate police and social services response (disbelieving victims or worse, believing them but just deciding that that they weren’t worth protecting); the subsequent victimising of the whole Muslim community and violence against Muslims on the street - particularly post Brexit - with almost no police response. It’s been a disaster. And then the simplification of this to one homogenous group (which doesn’t actually exist)… For poverty stats we used UN stats for the UK. For crime stats we used the ONS. We found, and the Rowntree foundation - which is significantly more credible than we were - said the same: adjust for poverty and immigration status disappears. The problem is - it’s massively complex… and the subject doesn’t really take well to reduction. overall though immigrants have contributed significantly to our economy (I do t think that’s a controversial claim?) and culturally. could we do more to integrate immigrants? We certainly could… Should we keep them all out? Personally - and it’s my view only of course- I’d say we have no moral basis to do so.
You are of course correct that to victimise a particular group of the community in its entirety based solely upon the behaviours of some people from within that community is wholly wrong - one would argue, however, that was not only a result of the failures of police/social services at the time, but also from police/local government/community leaders from all sections of the community after the fact. Had there been more open condemnation of the behaviour, the strength of feeling on the street would likely have been different. Understanding the factor why those who offend do what they do is vitally important - however, to exclude key parts of the available data just in case it offends someone is setting oneself up for failure. I accept that this is a very complex issue, however for the 'man in the street' who operates mostly on perception, it is less complex - - in fairness, you don't really care if they guy who has just battered your wife over the head for her handbag is a victim of poverty or not; if, however, they see that it is commonly those who are fairly new to the community and have little or no ability to speak English... well, it comes down to perception, doesn't it. This perception is deepened when concerns relating to cultural differences are raised and instantly shouted down/silenced with the accusation of racist being sprinkled around like fairy dust. We should be doing a massive amount more to integrate immigrants, and being much stricter about it too. Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that immigrants being with them a lot of experience and knowledge and benefit our communities massively, for that to happen at the expense of the community is not beneficial at all. I don't think anyone is saying we should keep all immigrants out either by the way - but we do need to limit the numbers we have coming in, not least as we have a massive housing shortage already and services such as the NHS are overstretched.
There’s so much here I agree with entirely. Eventually I come down to wanting a fair and balanced society and the things which prevent that don’t look like immigrants to me - but rather the Uber wealthy and corrupt who were here already. I’d also note that perception is very deliberately - and profoundly inaccurately - manipulated to blame immigrants deeply unfairly. When I worked in this field I used to want to scream when I saw the outrageously dishonest headlines…
I presume the pilots can travel overland to the polish border and then flown to Germany. The Reason they are sending MIG 29s from Poland is because they are trained in the use of those planes, I think the US will supply American planes to Poland as replacements. I think there is always a sub out there somewhere.
Good morning @JimmyB and @Nikolaos gentlemen please calm down lets discuss this topic with out any personalities thank you
There's a joke in there somewhere. A Scotsman, an Irish man and an Englishman.. It's likely that our "indigenous" population is quite a mixture of original Celts with Danes/Romans/Norman's etc. Arguably I'd guess the Scots and Irish are likely to be the most original. There's no doubt we've got issues with integration in certain quarters and that's not about poverty, that's directly an attitude problem. Ukraine is the big issue right now and I hope we can help a few more of the refugees who are mostly women and children. It's unlikely they'll cause trouble here and we'd have to be pretty mean to turn them away. The one's that ask to come here will be largely English speaking and let's be honest, we need desperately Nurses/Doctors/Carers/Lorry drivers etc etc (don't mention fruit pickers)
Just written 3 different posts and deleted all of them before pushing the button. This could go on and on but really most of it is off topic any way.
That is the difficulty nowadays - so many things are interlinked that keeping discussions down to one narrow topic is quite difficult. As long as the discussion is relative and the main core of our discussion remains (in this case events relating to the war) and things stay civil, then I think we can accept a degree of flex in terms of topic.
Excellent article this morning exploring why sanctions aren't quite as effective as we want them to be: The sanctions strategy is flawed. To defeat Putin, you have to know how the Kremlin works | Olga Chyzh I see the points made, but I'd also ask - what else could be done, if we do not want world war?
Oh I think we understand the Russian mindset and political arrangements well enough. We've been at this a very long time indeed. We knew sanctions are a longer term approach but it weakens the economy every day. Seizing yachts is just headlines. It's starting the revolution of the masses that's the goal. I did learn a new word though - autarky.
Why on earth are fighter planes debated publically and not kept secret?!.. Surely it should have been a case of cleaning off the identity markings and then the first time the Russians should have known about it would be when the unmarked planes turn up shooting. But it's futile anyway because the Russians would blow away any airfield that accommodates them.