The cost of living... what can we do?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Aug 26, 2022.

  1. shiney

    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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    They all tend to have much better insulation than a lot of houses in this country. Our government, years ago, made a concerted effort to get us to insulate houses but the effort didn't last long enough because it was costing them more than they thought. I can't remember how long ago it was (probably 30+ years ago) but we got cavity insulation (where we didn't have single skin walls) and loft insulation (4" was considered all that was needed in those days).
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      I have a gas fire in one room and I dont intend getting rid of it anytime soon.
      We dont get many power cuts these days but I just wonder if they are going to get more likely once everyone starts plugging in cars and 6kw heat pumps into a crumbling out of date grid with not enough capacity.
       
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      • noisette47

        noisette47 Total Gardener

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        You have to be a bit careful when generalising about climates, though, don't you? I don't know about the first five, but France, Italy and UK have wildly differing climate zones even within the respective countries. I seem to remember a certain politician swinging the withdrawal of the Winter Fuel allowance from French ex-pats on the basis of fiddled statistics. The mean temps for the overseas territories, like Martinique, Guadeloupe and La Réunion were included, so surprise!, France is a 'hot' country. Tell that to the folks living in the Alps or the Pyrénées...
        Even here in the South West I've experienced ten days of -12C / -17C and a metre of snow. The heat pump went into a deep sulk :biggrin:
         
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        • noisette47

          noisette47 Total Gardener

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          The French government offers subsidies with two catches. It's only the material that attracts a percentage subsidy, and it has to be installed by an 'approved' (i.e. expensive) installer. In a lot of cases, it's cheaper to get a local chap to do the work :)
           
        • noisette47

          noisette47 Total Gardener

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          On the contrary, its a ground source refrigerant/ wet underfloor heating system with a superbly insulated house on top :biggrin: I'm not complaining about it...wouldn't have anything else.....but if that was struggling in those conditions, I wouldn't place much faith in an air source heat pump in the UK. Just sayin'....
           
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          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            I have cavity wall insulation and loft insulation, probably not up to the required feet that it is supposed to be these days, but its there.
            On cold days the house can be not warm enough with the central heating running, in the required rooms, I dont heat the whole house anymore.

            I cant think a heat pump is going to be any better than my gas boiler as all I hear is they run at a lower temperature, so I need bigger and more radiators.

            Its pretty much rip the whole system out and replace it, not prepared to spend that kind of money, i'll never live long enough to get my money back, but if there is a thing churning away using 6kw I'll never get my money back.
             
          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            Surely there is a maximum out put on these systems if weather conditions drop below those allowed for the system will struggle in the same way any form of heating does.
             
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            • pete

              pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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              Why, I'm quite happy with what I have, its only this green push that is designed to make everyone feel guilty and spend lots of money on things they never thought they would be.

              I could look into solar panels, but when I did I was told I dont use enough energy to make it worth my while.

              It all costs money and its a long term gain for solar panels.
              I'm yet to hear how much heat pumps save you per year.;)
               
            • Jiffy

              Jiffy The Match is on Fire

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              Wood burner, Rayburn and a EFEL
              Rayburn & EFEL runs on Dirty diesal
              Wood Burner runs coal,wood & paper blocks + any thing else that burners
               
            • burnie

              burnie Total Gardener

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              We live in a small bungalow and our stove does indeed warm the whole house when we open up the door on a really cold night(we had minus 10 last winter). It's not dirty, ours is very fuel efficient, a layer of coal then top up with well seasoned logs to keep it ticking it over and by using the the vent controls it will stay lit over night. I have used open fires/stoves for most of life and really would miss one. Heat pumps, well we are on a bit of sandy soil with solid rock a few metres down, I don't think they will work here.
               
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              • shiney

                shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                Some of the contentions about it being practical, possible, financially viable are not necessarily correct.

                As mentioned, our house has cavity insulation, loft insulation (totally impracticable to increase it to the current minimum recommended depth) and double glazing. We had three quotes from highly reputable local companies and all three said that we could not keep the house as warm as we require without increasing the size of the radiators considerably - at a pretty hefty cost.

                They said that in a property such as ours an air source heat pump would only be viable if we had underfloor heating. That would be rather awkward with concrete floors!

                One of the companies, the one that installed our current heating and a good acquaintance, said that something over 40% of the properties he has been asked to survey were not suitable for air source pumps. A few of those still had them installed and something less than 30% of those have since had them removed because they couldn't do the job well enough. Those were ones that qualified for the grant.

                This may not be typical of the whole country but it certainly is a pointer towards the possibility of the government's figures having been massaged. The samples I have referred to are only numbered in the dozens but a significant proportion of people I know that have been interested in heat pumps.
                 
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                • Loofah

                  Loofah Admin Staff Member

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                  I should think that above a certain age people will simply not consider the upgrade. The next property owner might then upgrade the rads etc as a modernisation. Or not. Frankly costs need to be less, incentives great and performance must be conclusive
                   
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                  • shiney

                    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                    Too true. :blue thumb: Without those considerations uptake will always be low.
                     
                  • noisette47

                    noisette47 Total Gardener

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                    I phrased it badly. The pump did what it was designed to do but it wasn't designed to cope with those conditions. Because, unless there is some residual heat for the pump to augment, it is relying solely on the grid, because it's a 'low-temperature' system designed to run at a maximum of 23C and because, even with good insulation, the prolonged low outside temperatures made themselves felt. Let's hope that it won't be called on to 'cope' ever again!
                     
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                    • noisette47

                      noisette47 Total Gardener

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                      There are at least three kinds, burnie :) The 'boxes on the outside wall' are air/air or water. Then you have 'geothermal' although they're not truly geothermal...captors buried horizontally at 60cm circulating refrigerant with either underfloor heating (ideal) or radiators (not recommended). Then there's true geothermal. Not many folks in either France or UK opt for that as it involves captors in a deep borehole. Too complex and too expensive or like you, they're on rock!
                       
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