Electric cars.

It seems counterintuitive, but the oppisite is true - the maths of it is that when power is in short supply, power producers can put power suppliers over a barrel and charge them huge amounts - which then gets passed on to consumers. If some consumers can use less power at those times, or even supply it, for a lot less than those extortionate rates, then the supply company doesn't have to pay as much, so can keep their prices lower for everybody.

 

There's been some research on this, I think, if I remember rightly, in New Zealand on Nissan Leafs.
The current answer seems to be somewhere between "it has little effect" and "we're not really sure"
The physics of it is (in my limited understanding) that lithium batteries degrade more when they get:
-get hot (from rapid charging or discharging)
-are stored for a long time at full charge or with no charge

V2G systems don't rapid charge or discharge - they generally operate under 7.5KW, where rapid (motorway) chargers can work at hundreds of kW
V2G systems generally restrict charge levels between 25 or 30 percent at the bottom end and 95 percent at the top end - they generally keep the battery in the mid range more of the time, which is where a lithium battery is happier with life and lives to a grand old age...

 

@Stephen Southwest it doesn't matter what people opt to do regarding charging their vehicles, the grid would have to go through massive upgrades to have the load and no matter how many years they amortize that cost, non electric car owners will be paying too.

If it's all about climate the simplistic way to help the world would be to stop people from leaving countries where their per capita carbon footprint is low, from flowing into countries where a higher footprint is needed to support your survival.

We got rid of coal power plants in my province and are working towards even cleaner power production but we have to heat our well insulated homes in the winter. Bringing someone from a place that has a per capita of 2 ton carbon footprint, to where it is 16 tons doesn't do that country or the world any favours and no electric car is going to offset that.

 

The grid wouldn't have to go through massive upgrades to carry the loads - the loads would be managed by spreading the charging and discharging time. The challenge is not so much the total amount of electricity, the challenge, especially as more renewables with variable output come on line, is spreading the load more evenly, both geographically and over time.
Using EV's to soak up excess, store charge locally and discharge when needed addresses both the geographical and time variability.

Non electric car owners benefit from cheaper prices, because suppliers are not having to pay absurd amounts to balance the grid, (which they have to do either by paying producers to not produce, or by paying over the odds at peak time) It is much cheaper to use local, time flexible charge, storage and discharge to do this.
As I wrote earlier, I know it's a bit counterintuitive that home battery owners (EV or otherwise) save everyone money in this way, but they do, because they need a lot less financial incentives to be flexible than other electricity producers do.

 

Yes, I agree, we in the global north absolutely do need to stop exploiting people and resources from poorer countries, and get grownup enough to take care of ourselves.
This stops the flow of resources away from poorer countries, enabling them to be more stable and successful as places to stay living in. This is exactly how migration reduction can be well supported.

 

We are already on time of use punishment terms/rates for electricity here. I can't bake a loaf of bread in my electric oven before 7 at night without it costing dearly .

How many solar panels are you using to charge/power things in your domain and to relieve your demand from the grid?

I use a sun oven and a foot operated washer and many other things to lower my footprint Shifting my power demand hours of electricity from the grid doesn't make my footprint any less in the end!

 

Lots of people don't really trust their electric bills as it is, I just have this strange picture in my head of all this put and take of electricity, one minute you're charging your car or batteries and the next the grid is discharging them.

Nobody would ever be able to dispute a bill with all this going on.
Faulty meters have been known to occur.

 

So the bills are online, detailed and, in my experience, accurate.
Currently the smallest unit of time that I can see my usage for is half an hour.
Disputing bills is generally unnecessary, but if it's needed, I guess it's the same process as disputing any other electricity bill.

 

The electric vehicle manufacturers want the government to put in more power plants and upgrade the grid to support powering the vehicles they want to market. Plus add lots of public charging units.

If the grid has these publicly funded and costly upgrades done just to accommodate additional demand due to an exploding number of electric vehicles, then I will, indeed, be subsidizing both the manufacturer and the buyer of these cars.

If electric cars would charge quickly from renewable (solar/wind) power, and recharge from them without an umbilical to the grid, I would change my thinking on them.

 

So here in the UK there are a variety of TOU (time of use) tariffs, from a variety of suppliers, and customers choose whatever works for them.
Shifting your time of use should make you footprint smaller - here in the UK, customers pay less when there's less pressure on the grid, which is when, generally, the proportion of renewable generation is highest.

There are also occasional times when consumers are paid to use energy, so that the suppliers don't have to pay wind electricity generators (and possibly others) to shut down those turbines.

 

I"ve not heard any calls here in the UK from EV manufacturers to increase generation - my understanding is that there's enough energy in total - the challenge is moving it to the right place at the right time - time of use EV charging and discharging can help with that.
. .yes we're certainly seeing more domestic EV charging which responds to domestic solar output. There are now systems which can balance solar and house load to within 100w or so - unfortunately not yet widely commercially available, but trial outcomes are encouraging.

 

We've had these "smart meters" now for several years to I am well versed in how TOU works.

I'm sorry, my bull roar detector is blaring on extra loud. The only reason time of use rates have been brought in is to relieve pressure on the grid when businesses/manufacturers fire up for the day. If a private consumer uses it when they need it, then they will be punished. The highest rates are typically when people need to cook breakfast for the kids or supper. Or god forbid watch the news.

It is a money grab to force people to do "shift" work so that the grid doesn't need expensive upgrades to power everybody. And if everyone starts charging EV's then it won't matter, the grid will be overloaded 24/7 and the upgrades will cost everyone!

If people with electric vehicles really cared so much about the environment, they would demand clean, self sufficient ways to charge their vehicle.

So, I'm now curious. Have you ever been paid to charge your car to use up extra energy? Or know anyone personally who has? I've never ever heard of that here.

 

So - here in the UK, the most dynamic variable prices get low, sometimes negative, when grid demand is low and wind output is high - the main driver of negative pricing is that it's cheaper to pay consumers to use the electricity than to pay for curtailment.

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that the grid in the UK has insufficient generation to cover usage as EV usage increases - I'm curious if you've found any info on this?

Businesses, particularly those which are high energy users do, I believe, regularly use less energy in the UK in response to stress on the grid - I assume this is done via time of use tariffs, but I could be wrong - I've not looked into it.

Yes - I've been paid to use electricity many times here in the UK, as have many others, and I've also had my bills reduced with incentives to reduce usage or increase export at times of high demand/low supply.

For more on this - look at octopus agile, saving sessions, octopus free energy sessions... There are other suppliers offering similar systems rewarding customers to behave in ways that help balance the grid, but I've not used them...

 

Well, I did not know that the UK produces so much power that people are paid to use it. We don't have a luxury over here. My province is building more nuclear power plants which is good but takes many years to commission. We only produce "clean energy" albeit we still have some gas power plants which they is is a lot less polluting than coal.

And since we are talking apples and oranges, you having loads of power and us only just keeping up, there is no possibility of having the same opinions about how this will all work out.

This morning I noticed once again, that Teslas have that same big flaw that BMWs have. They don't have turn signals..