Newbury Allotment Dispute

I think you missed the point of the flag, Plant Potty.
The Council had a local Bye-Law preventing any structure above 8' in height.
The Activist constructed the Flagpole in direct contravention of this Bye-Law because the Council would not concede to his other demands.
He does state that if you read his diatribe (good description that Jack)

Hopefully now the Ciouncil have actioned their Eviction notice, calm will now return to the Wash Common Allotments.

 

I don't think the flag is the big issue at this stage

from the facebook link:
http://www.facebook.com/NewburyGrowingPains

snip (dated 2 April):

Latest news is that the Council fenced the plot round with that orange temporary fencing over the weekend, so I pulled it down first thing Sunday. That seems to have confused them as they've not tried to intimidate me again.

Come on town council, this is no way to behave - you need to talk to me about a just resolution to this dispute.

 

Simon Kirby I think the simplest thing to say is that none of the town councillors will talk to me. I'm not sure that many allotmenteers know what's going on as I don't discuss it with them. The committee of the allotment society decided some time ago not to support me but to "work with the council".

Does this statement not suggest he is waging a 1 man battle for an objective no-one else supports?

 

well, I just hope that it is sorted amiably on all sides ....

from what I have read, this has been going on since the beginning of 2010 ...

http://www.newbury.gov.uk/pdfs/news/Pressrelease - allotmentrents100203.pdf

snip:

The overall allotment service provided in Newbury is of very high standard. As well as the basic provision of land, the allotment service includes provision of water, security, maintenance of shared areas, pest control, parking, and occasional skips for excess rubbish. The level of thought and care that goes into the allotment service by the stewards, the services team and the community services committee is significant and more than by most other providers. Our commitment to allotment provision is plain to see.
The cost of providing allotments consists of around £22,000 in direct costs and around £40,000 in indirect staff costs. The total revenue from allotment rents is around £12,500. The difference is made up by all the residents of Newbury contributing through the precept part of their Council Tax. i.e. Newbury residents subsidise around 80% of the allotment costs.
To be fair to all residents of Newbury, allotment rents have been increased to reduce the subsidy and move towards at least covering the direct costs incurred. The new rent level of £6.94 per pole, which we believe to be at a reasonable level for the service supplied, will provide £17,500 revenue, reducing the subsidy provided by Newbury residents by £5,000. We are always looking at ways of being more efficient in provision of services, which will also help reduce the subsidy in the long run. We are also continuing our search for additional sites, which may help increase the net revenue and certainly reduce waiting lists.


The average allotment plot size is 4.7 poles, so the average increase in rent per year is £10.50, or around 20p per week. For each plot holder the impact will be slightly different.
Cllr Ifor Sheldon, Leader of Newbury Town Council said "It is disappointing that a minority of our allotment tenants cannot stand back and recognise the true and fair value of the service provided to them, and the support they receive from the whole of Newbury. The average tenant pays around 63p per week for their allotment. We hope that understanding will eventually set in, so that we can all work together to keep improving the allotment service".
---------------------------
an increase of 20 pence per week for an averaged sized allotment plot is pretty cheap, considering that the council includes provision of water, security, maintenance of shared areas, pest control, parking, and occasional skips for excess rubbish.
I don't own an allotment, however I very much doubt that the guys in my village who own allotments get this service
Simon comes across as a very keen gardener, so perhaps someone on this forum who lives nearby to him, and who has spare land will rent a section to him to grow veg?

 

Hi Clueless, I made about a dozen or more FOI requests from Wiltshire Council last year, they (Wiltshire Council) sited builders at my back hedge, this would of been ok other than the builders acting like builders and trashing the councils own car park, swearing etc, a swift and bloody battle broke between myself and Wilts Council, here's one of my FOI requests replies....

Dear Mr Southey

Request for Information – RFI 3684


Thank you for your request for information received 11th October 2011.

As of 1st April 2009 Kennet, North Wiltshire, Salisbury and West Wiltshire District Councils and Wiltshire County Council ceased to exist and a unitary authority, Wiltshire Council, was created.

In response to your request for information:

1) How much is Wiltshire Council charging the subcontractors (Mitie) per month for the use of the private car park to store materials and placement of a site office.

No charge is made to the contractor.If we did charge for it they would only look to recover it from the cost of the contract.

Wiltshire Council has a contract to modernise its council house kitchens and bathrooms. As part of the contract, The Council needs to offer the contractor areas within our district for them to set up site. This involves the contractor providing a compound for material storage, welfare facilities etc.

The use of this car park is due to finish in March 2012 when the modernisation contract is completed.

2) A full copy of the minutes of all meetings between the subcontractors and Wiltshire Council relating to the subcontractors use of the car park.

We can find no site meeting minutes which refer specifically to the use of the car park

I understand that you have spoken with Ed ****** with concerns about the use of the site. Ed has spoken with the contractor and will be updating you with the outcome of his conversation..
The Council has not withheld any information in relation to this request under the exemptions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
I hope the information received is what you were expecting. However if you are unhappy with what has been provided, you can ask us to reconsider under the council’s review procedure (attached) or you can contact the Information Commissioner’s Office at Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF, 01625 545745. If you would like to discuss any of the information provided to you or would like further information on the review procedure, please contact me on the number below.

Information supplied under the Freedom of Information Act and/or Environmental Information Regulations will be subject to copyright protection under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Information can be re-used for the purposes of research for non-commercial purposes, for private study or for news reporting and reviews, without requiring formal consent. However, if you wish to re-use the information for commercial purposes, including publishing, you are required to seek the permission of the copyright owner. Permission to re-use Wiltshire Council’s copyright information is granted in the form of a licence. Authorisation to re-use copyright material not owned by Wiltshire Council should be sought from the copyright holders concerned.

Mark

Mark E*********
Programme Lead (Customer Service)
Performance, Health and Workforce Team
Department of Community Services
Bythesea Road, Trowbridge, Wiltshire, BA14 8JN

I won my fight and got the builders evicted last year, the total cost/charge to me was £0.00, that included a full hard copy of the Councils contract with their subcontractor and a ton of other paperwork.

To be clear, are you posting "guide lines" that you've read, or have you ever made a FOI request your good self?

The way it works is (withouth exact time periods)
1) person makes request
2) Government body write back in recept of your request, they then have their 20 working days to get the info and write back to you with the "cost"
3) the person then has 3 months to pay the cost
4) the Government body then sends the data
5) you then have the right to discuss the data further (make a further related request/s)
6) Appeal to the ICO, either about the info or the costs, ie the Government body is being obstructive with undue high costs or has not supplied the data asked for.

IF you ask for the info/data electronicly there realy should be no charge, the Council has to supply info to the public by LAW, and as such are set up with peeps paid by the tax payer to do so, if they try it write to the ICO (address above)

Plant Potty

 

Maybe? if Jack ment "Flagpole" when he said "Flag" then I'm sorry, from here it came over he was talking about the English flag not the pole it is on?

All said and done if the OP is in breach of Bye-Law we should form a linch party n go get him

 

No, I've never made an FOI request. I was explaining what I'd learned, which I had to know to keep my job.

Yep, that's pretty much what I was forced to learn if I wanted to keep my job. However, this isn't what you said about them having to supply the data for free. They did in your case, probably because you were not fighting them. They had no reason to be awkward. On the contrary, it was in their interest to supply the information for free. From what you describe, it could easily be perceived that the council were to blame for all the mess. They would be keen to show that they were not to blame.

Where you say there should be no charge for data supplied electronically, that's not the same as saying there is no charge. In a democracy, there should be no need for the Freedom of Information act, because anything in the public interest should be made public anyway.

The council has to supply the requested info by law, once you've covered the cost of collating that data, IF they choose to make a charge, which they are entitled to do. As in your case, they chose not to. If you were hoping to expose data that would cast them in a very negative light, you can bet they'd have asked for a substantial fee.

 

I've reread what i've written and cant see where I've stated its "free", in post #57 what I said was "the council may ONLY CHARGE for photocopying and such like, if you request the info electronicly ie by email, then they have no right to make a charge" I think you maybe got confussed by the last part? to be clear, if they have to pay an office lass to walk backward and forward copy'n stuff whilste licking letters and running to the post office? then yes i'd agree to a £10 charge (maybe), BUT if the info you request is held electronicly (as I said above but you missed I think?) and you request that its sent to you electronicly, there is next to no cost, I think that was the biggest part of the ICO's guide lines that sunk in when I read them last year

Also my fight with the council last year was deffo not in their interest, maybe i put it wrong above? Wilts Councils contractors broke a few laws/contracts, and so did Wilts Council, I had them banged to rights, they said "Sorry, can we stay to the end of our contract" I said "No, have a nice day", all of the face of my FOI requests, they were obstructive in terms of time spans, but I told Peter Bravery (the guy in charge of the guy in charge) with my request, that IF he tried to make a silly "charge" I'd write to the ICO and that I'd read their giude lines...

Well no, its not the same, I think we might be able to see each others points? thats a question only the ICO could answer.

Public interest? in a democracy there's tons of data that should be with held from the public, I can just see Osma'Bin'Dead'UN aksing under the FOIA 2000 "how many guns n ammo you got in Salisbury Nick?"

IF you're any good at your job there should be no cost in collating data electronicly, being that you work for the Government and they already pay staff to collect the data your asking for in the first place, about you, stuff, hosepipe bans n all sorts.......

I painted Wilts Council in a very bad light, I locked a Council van in a council car park coz it had no right being there, and no legal right to trade from the site, they made no charge on me only coz thats what the ICO guide lines said there should be for that "type" of info, and told them I was informed of my rights and costs, case closed.

Plant Potty

 

Data that is stored electronically is not free to extract. Someone has to foot the bill, and there is a bill in one form or another. There has to be because it takes time and effort (and therefore someone's wages) to collate it.

As I software developer I know that non-techies often think you just have to 'press a couple of buttons'. They completely overlook that things like:

* The data protection act means that if the system the data is stored on is fully compliant with the law, then the confidential data is secured.
* Not everyone in the organisation, even the programmers, have access to that data, and may have to either request it from someone that has got access, or request access for themselves. In that case, in order to not fall foul of the Data Protection act, the person who is going to pull the data needs to be able to justify it and that means time spent explaining why it is wanted etc.
* The requested data may be stored on multiple systems, in multiple physical locations. Some of it may have been archived and may have to be recalled and restored, which, if the data is stored securely, will involved recalling media from a seperate site (secure data is stored in seperate physical locations so that no data is lost if one location is destroyed by fire).
* The data is unlikely to be in human readable form. It may therefore require a programmer to manipulate it into human readable form.
* The data may be indexed in a way that does not directly match the content of the request, but where human eyes would quickly find a match, so someone must spend time checking everything.
* There may be content in items matching the request that may not be exposed as part of the request. For example, lets say the item in question is an email message where you are generally entitled to see the content, but one part of it mentions the name of somebody else. Someone has to manually decided whether to simply delete the other name, or if you should see the message at all. I.e. there may be conflict between the FOI act and the DP act which protects privacy, in which case the latter prevails.
* After all this has been done, somebody then still has to check the collated data and make sure that all laws have been complied with, remembering that as the FOI act is limited to government bodies, it is possible that the likes of the Official Secrets act (which contrary to popular belief, is not limited to military matters), may come into it, and of course the Data Protection act has to be considered too, because for example if the council minutes included an article about Mr Joe Bloggs being seen snogging Cllr Brown's wife on Townville highstreet, although the FOI act entitles you to see the minutes (excluding exemptions) the Data Protection act means you can't see that info unless you are either Mr Joe Bloggs or Cllr Brown's wife.

Then, on top of all that, because the government is an overly bureaucratic entity, you can absolutely count on some over paid external auditors wanting to know that:
1) Everything was done correctly
2) That it was done as cheaply as possible (and at a tiny fraction of the price the auditors will charge for their service)
3) That the data was all secured nicely
4) That the transmission method does not violate any laws or internal policies (email is usually a no-no, because it is not secure).

So, it is fair to charge for sending data electronically if it is a bespoke request requiring human effort (as an FOI request inevitably will be). And I guess this is why no limit has been set on the admin charge of fulfilling such requests, but rather it is at the discretion of the organisation concerned, or the courts in cases where the requester challenges the fee.

All of that, an

 

Anyone watching the footy this Saturday?

 

Don't like football?

 

22 'men' fighting over one ball when each one of them gets paid more than enough to buy his own ball.

 

No football sorry
I prefer reading threads on Data Protection, by someone who knows the score

(get it the SCORE)

Jack McH

 

Holy wall of text Batman!!!

So If what you say is TRUE? how come I can make a "SAR" Subject Access Request to the Inland Revinue and get 600+ photocopied pages back about my tax records free of charge? thats the service I recevid 3 years back from them! I'll tell you why, coz they have the data you want at hand, on their pc, NOT WRITTEN ON THE BACK OF A cigarette PACKET SON, if and thats IF, you go back and read the email about one of my FOI requests from wiltshire Council, that I posted for you above, you will read their answer, they had NO RECORDS of any meetings, thats crap, thats why I should'nt have to pay a charge for a crap answer, would you? are you that daft?
I'm not lolz

Plant Potty



anyway back on topic,