Non-lethal insecticide?

Good lad

I remember a great fuss in our house years ago when the school suspended my sister because she refused to cut up a live locust and glue the bits into her exercise book for biology.

 

Sorry this is off-topic, but I agree: a friend did post-graduate research with UK Jains, and much of what she told me was depressing. Not only does their non-interventionism rule out stopping others from committing cruelty, but they also refuse to put animals to sleep even if painfully and incurably ill - to avoid obstructing their own karma by committing a "sin." Re the glass of water, they would argue some killing is just unavoidable, but many go to extraordinary lengths to avoid unnecessary harm, and I do find that refreshing in this age of consumerist excess and general selfishness. However, if a compassionate approach is taken only because of faith, this utterly negates its authenticity.

So you have observed Jains in India? How interesting. I bet India was fascinating from a horticultural perspective?!

 

Really?! Good on her for refusing!

 

I don't think we live in an age of consumerist excess and general selfishness. I think people live by the habits they learn, and most will, if they feel something is not right, try to change it for the better. Just many people don't know how. They can't be blamed for that. We can talk about war and violence and crime and capitalism and consumerism, but then we can consider that despite obvious imperfections and shortcomings, every nation has attempted to set some kind of law to enforce some level of respect and order. That tells me that somewhere deep down in the human psyche, we instinctively know right from wrong and at least try to do right most of the time. The fact that we often worry about just how much we get it wrong just reinforces my belief that people are generally good intentioned, even if in practice they mess it up.

Some would say that religion is based on the word of their god. Some say its based on tradition and observations passed down over many generations (buddhism for example doesn't feature a god in the more usual sense, the buddha was just the enlightened one, the chap that was said to realise the truth that most people missed). Invariably though someone who genuinely believes in the teachings of their religion, believes they are doing the right thing. If you do what you believe is the right thing, regardless of why you believe it, then it most be authentic.

 

I'm sure you're right, I just prefer it when someone does good for its own sake. If the Jains' religion encouraged killing animals, they would embrace that as eagerly as they embrace not killing them, which makes me question whether anyone who acts a certain way does so because they believe its right, or through a fear of "what if" should they defy their faith. I doubt either of us can possibly prove whether people are ultimately good intentioned, given the billions of people on the planet at any given time, but if such is your belief I shan't try to discredit it; I'm glad you think so, at least it proves you are not as cynical as me. I think one's social and professional backgrounds affect one's perceptions. Perhaps you have had a broadly different and more positive experience of society than I have? In any case, I tend to find that plants, gardening and nature at least bring out better sides to people and remind us of the basics of life, where we came from, etc, which is one reason I'm glad not to demolish other beings in assignments, and glad school biology lessons have moved on from your sister's time - hopefully

 

True, but if even a quarter of those people were fundamentally bad, we'd have no chance at all of having the relatively easy life that most of us have, compared to other species that we share the planet with.

What I mean is, if one in four people were fundamentally bad, then statistically almost every household would have at least one bad-un. You wouldn't be able to walk down the street without being attacked, and you'd have to become a bad-un yourself just to get by, so it would be self perpetuating. A bit like in the film, Mad Max

Its impossible to say. Maybe so. I spent my first 11 years of life living in a proper working class largely skint street, the next couple of years seeing the neighbourhood around me fall into disarray after mass redundancies at the hands of Thatcher, a few more years moving from one bedsit to another with one or other parent after our house got repo'ed, then a few more years in the areas most notorious council estate before I climbed my way out of it all despite seeing other people around me get more for less.

Don't get me wrong, I paint a bleak picture, but it wasn't like that. The reason being that throughout it all there was one thing that really stood out. Yes a few people had gone bad, but the vast majority were alright, and would lend a hand any time they could. Most wouldn't judge. A few even fed us from time to time if food ran out before payday. A very memorable thing for me was when I was 17 and had been going to college part time, studying at home in my own time etc. A mate, who was a sound lad but didn't initially go to the same effort as me (ultimately sorted himself out and joined the army but initially he wasn't doing much), turned to me one day and said 'you'll be alright you cos you do all that reading and that'. Terribly bad grammar, but the sentiment was unmistakable, he could see that I was trying to climb out of the squalor that life had served on us, at the time he didn't believe in himself enough to realise he could do the same, yet he was encouraging me.

See, most people are good

In any case, I tend to find that plants, gardening and nature at least bring out better sides to people and remind us of the basics of life, where we came from, etc, which is one reason I'm glad not to demolish other beings in assignments, and glad school biology lessons have moved on from your sister's time - hopefully [/quote]

 

As I say, I'm glad you think so.

 

This thread is messed up...
Non-lethal insecticide? thats a joke, right? what are we talking here? what is the OP trying to do? Non-lethal insecticide? its a fail, for the hard of learning= Man like food, insect like mans food, man kills insect, man use insect to kill insect or chemical, there is no "Non-lethal" in dying, *sigh* just maybe eco worriars should think about the UK Stag Baetle? maybe? they live in my garden, I kill green fly, and others, but have good stag beatles :P

 

Careful not to sit on the fence PP

 

There's something quite aggressive and "shouty" about your contribution here, which is a shame as we had managed to keep this discussion civil despite the fact that at least two of us clearly hold very different views. I admit, my choice of words in the original title were clumsy but it was explained in the actual question...which in any case is now resolved.

 

Still, its quite a powerful topic, and I think its great that people have strong feelings about these things. History teaches us the value of strong feelings. Imagine if hardly anyone cared about what Hitler was doing, or what about the women of Greenham Common? They may not have got their way short term but they didn't half highlight their concerns, and I wonder how many whales are still alive because a handful of people feel strongly enough to take an inflatable speed boat and use it to block the path of a massive ship.

Strong opinions change the world, quite often for the better. I say bring it on

 

I totally agree, and I feel very strongly about this which is why I was prepared to exit my course if the college could not accommodate my position. To use your whale analogy, it would be utterly inconsistent for someone like me (who has campaigned against whaling and does not eat meat) to unquestioningly exterminate other animals. I realise insecticides are not going to simply disappear, I know why they are used, and in the past I have myself used them, but anyone who has read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring will be well aware of the destructive nature of pesticides and such, and anyone who places compassion higher than convenience will at least appreciate where I'm coming from on this sensitive issue. I just felt a trifle put out at being described as hard of learning and "shouted at" in bold type.
At the same time, I am mindful that this is a gardening website and I don't want to detract from that by veering into other areas of ethical or social debate (such as our brief discussion of human behaviour). However, I wouldn't dream of stifling such a discussion should others wish to have it.

 

While I mostly agree with you, though I would be wary of forming an opinion based on one book, I think there's a few things to ponder (not saying any of it is right or wrong, just something to think about).

1. Humans are not against nature, we are part of it. We're just an animal like any other. evolution has given us advantages and disadvantages (superior intellect, good physical dexterity, but we're physically slow and weak). As a species we are driven to do what we can to survive and to ensure the survival of our offspring. All species are the same in their own way.

2. If we as a species were to vanish tonight, a lot of creatures would suffer. How many dogs, cats, foxes, birds would suddenly have to find their own food again. Not just people's pets, animals that have learnt over millenia that where there's human's, there's food, either because we feed them, because we throw away good food, or because we expose food in our activities such as birds taking the worms that get exposed as we dig in prep to grow our food. Sure they'd find their way, but a lot would suffer while they were finding it.

3. Contrary to popular belief, we're not unique in our destructive nature. Any land owner will happily talk of their frustration at the destruction dealt from rabbits, squirrels and deer. They're not bad, they're just doing what they do. They breed and they eat, and unless they get eaten their numbers increasingly rapidly so they eat more, until there is nothing to eat. I.e. they destroy their own environment.

4. This is the most important bit of all. Probably should have been number 1. Mother nature has an unbreakable rule. You can't have life without death. If you are I want to eat, something has to die. If we were to return to being primates, and I saw a tree full of juicy apples, and I saw another monkey had also spotted the same tree full of apples, and each knows that their family will go hungry if they don't claim those apples, there's only going to be one course of action.

 

I'm sure you're right, but I hope as time goes on we will eliminate insecticides altogether.