Where to start with this grass? (pics posted.)

Hello all,
I know this is a question that has been asked many times before, but after hours of searching the web I'm not much further forward and still am not sure where to start. I thought you lovely people might have a few pointers, hehe!

I would like to know if there's any way to get this 'lawn' back to a decent state.
We plan on clearing the garden of junk this weekend and then, weather permitting, trying to start on the grass next weekend. We did try on a large test patch just soaking the area in weedkiller (one that 'kill the weeds not the lawn')but it didn't do anything after three applications over 2 months. The soil is very clay like, if that's anything to do with it.

Is this fixable or would it need completely digging up to have rolled turf laid down?

This is the view at the side of the house (it's an end terrace garden).


This is the part of the garden that comes off the patio doors. The grass looks in slightly better nick in this area. I'm confident I can have the flower beds around the side looking great, just needs some elbow grease.



And here's a close up of what we are dealing with. It's like this all over.



Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!

 

to gardeners corner. hopefully someone will be along in a min to answer your query. where are u located please?

 

Well on looking at the third picture I would say you have no grass as such ,other than the few tufts I can see.

Personally I think your best bet is to start again and get rid of what is there now.

Regarding the weedkiller you have used that is designed for a lawn that has predominantly grass with a few weeds, your situation is the reverse of this!

It is a bit early for applying weedkiller now what with the frosts about so really all you can do for the moment is remove the heavy growth to allow the fresh growth to take place.

Once this fresh growth appears blast it with a glyphosate based weedkiller e.g Roundup!

The reason I say wait is; It only works on material that is growing and most of yours might be dormant and the new weeds seeds have not germinated

By the way do not buy the ready to use variety ( it might be too diluted) buy the stuff that you mix yourself and work to the instructions on the packaging.

Now in terms of replacement that is another story so may I suggest you read this article first then take it from there.

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Lawn - Maintenance/Lawn - Maintenance.htm

Get back to us if you need any further info...Tg

 

Hi Chimney thanks for the welcome, I'm in Bradley Stoke, Bristol.

Tee, thanks for the advice, I'll clear some this weekend but will wait to apply the weedkiller until we have some better weather.

Have had a look at the site thanks, have bookmarked it for a later date.

I was kind of hoping it would be as simple as de weeding then throwing some grass seeds everywhere!

 

Welcome to GC, Sol

As a beginner gardener, I don't have the expertise of many on here. My only experience is when I moved here and had a copse area which was over grown with weeds, debris and other non-gardening features. That Autumn I cleared the lot! The next Spring, and with the help of Mr Mum and the Mini Men, we cleared anything which raised its ugly head in that area. By the late Summer, grass had found its way into the area and by the following Spring, it had grown everywhere: so, no seed, no turf, nada! It wasn't intentional; definately accidental, but we liked the result No way could we have afforded to turf the lot, so it was a lovely surprise.

I have no doubt more experienced gardeners will give you higher quality info than mine and point you in the right direction

 

It can be providing you aerate the soil before you sow, and don't forget you reap what you sow so minimal effort in, means minimal effort out.

If its cheapness you want have a word with a local farmer and get a shovelful HAY seed.

But be warned you might also end up up with a bed of meadowland flowers depending upon how he has sourced his seed!

 

The photos help a lot, thanks.

When did you apply the weed killer? Last Summer, or well into Autumn or later?

What type/brand was it? When you say "soak" did you literally pour it on, or did you water it on (with a watering can, or perhaps a sprayer)

I'm interested that the "lawn" is not overrun with weeds. The grass hasn't taken over, but nor have the weeds. Do you get standing water on it when it rains hard, and if so does it clear in half an hour, or stay there for hours / days? (that leads to some questions about whether you need to improve the drainage before trying to make a lawn).

Are you prepared to spend this year getting it round (and it possibly looking tatty whilst you do that), or must be it be in good neck for this Summer? (The first will be cheaper, so "instant gratification" will cost more, sadly!)

It would help if you could put your Location in your Profile (it will then show up alongside your posts and everyone will know whereabouts you are in the country, rather than needing to ask you each time )

I think it is unlikely that it is too dilute to be effective??

But it would most probably be a much more expensive way of buying it. However, for a one-off job it saves getting a watering can, or sprayer, specifically for weedkiller, so I suppose it might be cost effective on that basis. Cheaper to borrow a watering can/sprayer reserved for weedkiller off a neighbour though.

 

Hello and welcome Sol.

Tee Gee has said more or less what I would say, but here goes anyway.

I too would go with Round Up. Like Tee Gee suggests, I'd go for Round Up concentrate simply because its value for money. Its quite expensive, but one little bottle makes many gallons. Except not yet, hold off for now on that bit. As Tee Gee said, it only works when the target is in active growth.

First things first, I'd do a good tidy up. Go over the lot with a mower or strimmer, trim the hedge if you want to, get rid of all the clippings, generally get it so that you're not having to move stuff about as you work your way around the garden.

I'd scalp the ground, mowing it as close as I dare (bearing in mind that if you set the mower too low, and the ground is uneven, you'll whack the mower blades in).

Next, ask yourself this. Once the lawn is back, when will you next get a chance to put it right if anything is wrong?

If the ground is all clay as you say, then it will benefit from some compost or manure (even for grass) because otherwise it will just become severely compacted in no time at all. Spent mushroom compost is about the cheapest stuff I know of (unless you can get rotted manure cheaper or free from a local farm or riding school). I bought 60 sacks of the stuff (about £160 delivered). Whatever you choose, I'd dig it into the top few inches of ground. Don't dig too deep, you don't want to bring subsoil up to the surface and you don't want to make the ground too loose, otherwise you'll end up with great lumps and dents in your lawn.

In spring time, when everything starts growing, mix up your round up in a watering can and just douse the lot. Give it a week or two, and then repeat if necessary.

Loosen the surface with a rake, and chuck grass seed all over it. The birds will nick about half the seed if you don't stop them. You have two choices here, either keep the birds off (good luck with that) or accept that some seed will get pinched, and buy twice as much as you think you need.

Keep it moist, and wait for your lawn to start growing. Be sure to keep us posted because once it starts to grow, unfortunately that's not the end of it. There's still a bit more to do before it becomes a lawn.

Top, a bit of sharp sand will do no harm. Apart from helping to keep the moss at bay, if you mix your seed with it, it will be much easier to see where you've already done.

 

I think, from the photos, it may need more work than that C1. The pattern of "gaps" between weeds and grass tufts looks like there is something wrong with the soil (could be waterlogged / compacted, could be buried builders rubble etc.)

Sol: Is the house a relatively new build?

O/P is talking of Turf rather than seed - that's not to say that Seed won't do ... but if speed is important [in terms of being able to walk on a viable lawn] then it may need to be turf. Personally I hate using / recommending Turf as its so environmentally unfriendly - stealing an inch or so of fenland topsoil ever couple of years is not sustainable indefinitely ...

 

Thanks for all the great posts guys, very much appreciated! I have added my location, hopefully it's showing up now.

Mum - brilliant! I bet it looks fab. On a side note, as I was looking through the site before I posted I came across the pics of the cute ducklings, how sweet. My three year old now wants ducks in the garden too!

Tee - I'm sort of joking about throwing seeds, although on my lazy days I might try to persuade my other half that the meadow look is so in this season. hehe On a serious note though, we really are willing to put the time and work in to get it looking lovely, we were just a bit overwhelmed with the whole thing at first. Can't wait to get stuck in now.

Kristen - We put the first lot of weed killer on in around June, then repeated. It was with a pressurised sprayer but we were very generous with it, it was puddling. I honestly can't remember the brand now, sorry. It was one of the popular ones and was quite expensive. I will ask my partner tomorrow.

Interestingly the soil does take a long time to drain, it takes hours in places for water to completely soak through. Some places better than others.

As for a time scale, I really don't mind about waiting for results. The plan was to turf the area directly outside the patio doors (pic 2) for this summer so the kids had somewhere to play, and then just take our time with the largest area (pic 1). I didn't realise that turf isn't environmentally friendly, it's important to us it's all done properly so will have a rethink on that.

The house was built around 15 years ago. You mentioned builders rubble in a post I think, and yes there is a fair bit in the soil.

Clue - We are really looking forward to just clearing it now that it's the right way forward. We've been itching to start on it just didn't know what to do for the best! We realise that the garden will be a labour of love and are prepared for years of work ahead. We look forward to it, honest!

Hadn't heard of mushroom compost, will definitely try to get some when we need it. I do love a bargain. (We have started our own compost bin this month, all going well, free compost next year - win!)

 

That sounds OK. Not necessary to apply it to the point of runoff though (wetting to just before it starts to runoff would be best). If you got the leaves fully coated, with some runoff, that should have had an effect. If you got the dilution rate wrong that would have stopped it working, but I expect that it pretty unlikely - particularly as you did it several times.

Selective Lawn weedkillers are not as effective on weeds as total weedkillers as they have to leave the grass alone, of course, but [given that you applied it in Summer] I would still expect you to have seen a reasonable response, in particular some of the weeds shrivelling up / curling up within a few days of application.

Maybe the photos are showing that? The place is not overrun by weeds, but rather it has "gaps" between grass and weeds. Maybe it was worse before?

I think this is quite telling. My expectation is that there is either builders rubble buried or they completely mucked up the subsoil.

Digging some experimental holes and seeing if you find rubble would be a good indicator. If you do then, long term, there is no alternative but to dig it all out, it will never make a garden until it is sorted out.

If they just mucked up the subsoil and spread a tiny layer of topsoil over it to cover their mess it will be hard to make a good garden.

Personally I would sort out the drainage. I would put in some "land drains". You can get perforated drainage pipe on a roll, put it in a trench 2' deep and back fill it (enough to cover the pipe) with gravel. Make a deeper hole at the lowest end of the pipe - as big as you can manage - and put all the rubble you find in it to make a soakaway. I don't think the soakaway is critical, obviously the more rubble you put in it the better it will work, but IME just having the drain with gravel around it provides a significant "buffer" for the rain to be "held" in whilst it then soaks away.

Route the pipe where you thing the edge will be at the front of your flower beds - thus the beds will benefit from the drains.

You need to fluff up the soil to make it work better. Digging it and working in some organic matter is the way to achieve that. But if it is very thin (i.e. the builders just stuck a couple of inches on top of mud) you may struggle. Mushroom compost or rotted manure are ideal.

My personal dislike of turf is that it removes rich soil from places where it is grown, eventually leaving much poorer soil there. There is an environmental aspect to its transportation too. But that's a decision for you, not something for me to lecture you about!

On a more practical level:

Turf will be ready to walk on in a month or so. Until then try to keep off it, or put boards down if you need to walk on it.

If you only turf part (near the patio) then the seed you sow adjacent to it, later, will look a different colour for a year or two (as may turf that you buy later, unless you get the same "brand").

The soil preparation is the same, whether you lay turf or sow seed, so seed will be your cheaper route. For a small garden the cost difference may not be significant. Seed runs the risk that weed seeds come up at the same time as the grass seed, so the new lawn will need to be treated with chemicals to cure that (beware that most lawn chemicals are not suitable until the lawn is 6 months old). This is much less of an issue for lawns sown in the Autumn, as the grass will germinate at a time when the weeds are shutting down.

In Spring you will have to water grass seed through the first summer during any dry spells, and almost certainly turf too (after the first 4-6 weeks when it is getting established, during which time you will have to water every day or two if the weather is warm and dry - obviously not a problem if you can lay turf in March, say, but definitely a problem if you lay turf in June!)

If your soil is too rubbish for flower beds I think it would be best to replace it with topsoil. Expensive route I'm afraid, but I think the alternative will be a lot of disappointment struggling to get plants to grow well, or even survive, so that you can enjoy them.

If you go down that route look out for people nearby who are building extensions / conservatories etc. and ask if you can take the top soil before they start work. They will only have to pay to have it taken away so you will be saving them some money. Depends on how easily you can get it back to yours though ... a barrow and a couple of hundred yards and 10 tonnes of topsoil is a very good workout indeed!

You need a minimum of 9" of good soil to plant in. An alternative would be to make a raised bed, on top of your "mediocre" soil, and put the good topsoil in that. That saves you the cost of having to dispose of yours, and will also improve drainage. (You still need to dig the original soil underneath and add organic material to that).

No easy route to solving this without quite a lot of hard work I'm afraid.

 

Mowing it, applying some more selective lawn weedkiller (in the Spring once it is growing), a good application of lawn fertiliser, and see how you get on is definitely an option. I'm just a bit sceptical that the soil looks rather "sour" in the photos.

But its the cheapest route by a long way, and if it doesn't work you could then do the ground work and seed it next Autumn, which would be cheaper than turf and is a much better time than sowing grass in the Spring. (Autumn sowing will also allow you to get a very effective "kill" with Roundup/Glyphosate in late Summer, prior to preparing the soil)

If you want to try that you need to aerate it (stick a fork in every 12" and give it a small wiggle to make drainage holes and let air in), and then once the weeds have been killed off rake the gaps energetically to loosen the soil and over-seed them with grass seed (apply about 1/4 to 1/2 the amount for making a new lawn. Be "mean" rather than "generous" - too much will not be better than too little!)

Mow it without fail every week during the season. That will give the rougher grasses a hard time and the finer grasses will thus be given a chance to prosper.

 

It will only get worse over time, unless you loosen it and add some compost/manure. Hard work, but only for a few days, and once its done, its done.

Good idea to do it in stages, starting near the house. Top Tip Don't do it for the kids, do it with the kids. My son has been involved in most of my garden projects since he was able to stand unaided. Now he's just turned 4 and he is learning a fair bit. Obviously you can't expect very young kids to be able to do much practical stuff, but even if they are more hindrance than help, I think its very rewarding to gloss over that and encourage them. My son does see the garden as the garden now, he sees it as our garden. Apart from the satisfaction of seeing him enjoying himself out there, there is also the point that he knows not to walk on the plants and indeed actively tries to look after them, because he's attached to them because he was involved right from the start.

To be honest, environmental concerns aside, I don't see the point of turf anyway. I started off with a garden in much worse state than yours (I'm not kiddin) and after much work, I raised my back lawn from seed. I seeded it in the spring, and it was in regular use by summer.

Technically, you're meant to stay off the grass for the first full growing season if you raise it from seed, but also for MOST of the season with turf. My view was that some of the grass will survive, and I can just overseed any sparse patches later. It worked fine, cost me a fraction of the price of turf, and was ready for use just as quickly.

There are many suppliers, and many options. I bought mine off ebay (60x50L sacks).

Have a look at this for some ideas.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=mushroom+compost&_sacat=0&_from=R40

 

Shiney - Regarding the second picture, yep this is what we are thinking too. I'm looking forward to being able to take time out from the heavy duty stuff to be honest and focus more on the flowers etc. As soon as the snow has gone we'll get rid of the dead leaves. I'll definitely keep you all updated with pics along our journey!

Kristen - With the weed killer, I think it did kill some weeds but as some were dying more seemed to appear! Then with the second application we were a bit disheartened. I do think we were naively expecting a miracle cure though.

I will certainly do this, it would be devastating to put so much work in for it to not last long term. We'll keep our fingers crossed!
Excellent idea about asking the neighbors for topsoil, there are always people doing work on their houses in the area. I think we will definitely give the grass seed a go now from what you and the other guys have said.

Clue - Agreed! I have ordered some kids garden tools already, it will be great fun

Didn't think to check out Ebay, will have a browse tomorrow.

Manic week ahead now, just hope the snow clears for next weekend. Will let you all know how the clearing goes. Again, thanks for all the advice, it's truly saved us a huge headache!