Sowing grass seed - stones problem

Hi all. I want to sow some grass seed on an area of my garden which has been very bare, covered in ivy, twigs, stones ect for a long time, its quite shady for about 2/3rds of it too as its under some tall trees and at the back of the garden, its about 12 sq metres in a long rectangular strip, 2m wide x 6m long. I have tried to get rid of the debris and have forked and raked the soil, raking as much as i can and treadind down, there were loads of bulbs too which i have dug up and lots of stones, some big ones as well as lots of small ones. I have also put some general fertilzer granules on it a couple of weeks ago and today was my first opportunity to get to work on sowing the grass since 2 weeks of rain. Anyway I came to start it this morning and where I had raked there were now hundreds of stones which have come to the surface I think because of the rain washing the soil away. I have tried raking some more but I can still see stones under the soil when I rake and I can only think that the same thing will happen even if I did rake it again and try to get rid of the stones, once it rains again. They are mostly small stones 1-2 cm in size, i think there are bigger ones below the surface. So anyway what I want to know is what should I do about the stones? Do I need to put a load of top soil on the top to cover the stones and if so how much? I am half contemplating just turfing it, but would i need to put a load of top soil down under that too? i hope you can help me.

 

Hi Ben, Welcome to GC.

Quite a few issues here!

firstly, grass is a plant and needs a nice place for it to live for it to thrive. Any grass (turf or seed) needs at least 6 inches of good rooting soil for it to do well. Any less and your grass will only ever be thin and weak, and you will be back to nothing in no time. Stones are certainly not ideal, and I would make every effort to remove as many as possible. Now that doesn't mean just raking off the stones on the surface, but taking a spade, digging over the soil and removing as many as you can.
If you can't get a spade in as there is hidden concrete / boulders or whatever, then I would give up on trying to put a lawn there, as you will be wasting your time and will only be disappointed.

Additionally, you say that it is shady? Even shade tolerant grass needs a good couple of hours of sunshine in the summer for it to stay healthy. Any less than that and it will thin, and that is on an idea soil. On a stony, poor soil, it will just die. If it is in deep shade, you will struggle to get any grass at all.
A clue is, if there are no weeds there, then you won't get grass to grow there either!

If you can add soil on top, which might be your best option, then as I said before you need it to be at least six inches deep to get a good lawn, more if you can.

Finally check the temperature of the soil. Most grass needs at least 8 degrees for it to germinate, and most places in the UK are nowhere near that yet, especially if you've had snow! So I'd wait a couple of weeks before putting seed down yet!

Hope this helps a bit!

Kris

 

Good post Kris, think you have covered all the bases there.

 

At the risk of being burnt at the stake! if the site is too dark or soil is too lousy to grow grass then consider Astroturf. I've seen a number of places where this has been used where it was both extremely function in adverse weather - i.e. not going muddy / bald! - but also from a distance you could have fooled me

 

Ooooohhh.

No comment.

 

Ah ... you clearly have not actually disagreed then?

 

Thanks for your comments. Kris, how much top soil would I need do you think if its 6" thick? It's a 12 metre square plot, sounds like I'm going to need a lot of soil. And is that 6" compacted? Also if I was to use turf instead of seeding would I not need as much top soil underneath as the turf already has thickness to it? Regarding your comment about weeds being a sign that the soil is capable of growth, there were weeds growing in it which I have pulled up as well as bulbs too so I think it should be alright although there is one patch right in the corner that didn't have any weeds, so that bit might not do so well. Kristen i think i would definitely be burnt at the stake by my wife if i was to suggest that, but the idea of no mowing is appealing!

 

Doesn't sound too bad then. If you had bulbs and weeds growing in it then you should be okay. Just dig it over (or rotavate it) to get some air into it and pull out all of the perrenial weed roots and then rake it flat. It would probably also benefit from some organic matter (like a bag of compost) being added to give some life to the soil before seeding and it should do fine.
Preparing for turf is exactly the same.
Good luck.
Take some before and after pics and post them on here ... would like to see how you get on!
Kris

 

i must admit artificial grass seems to have come on leaps & bounds in recent years, its more realistic now than it ever was. we're considering getting it for the section of garden at the side of the house as the ground over there is all concrete, we were panning to just get more decking but after seeing the quality of the artificial grass our local gym just got in...well i'd much rather have that i dont see it as a lawn substitute tbh its just another 'hard landscaping' option, we already have plenty of decking and lawn, it's nice to try something new

 

I agree with the alternative options. Getting grass to grow and keeping it looking good will be a never-ending source of frustration! Even green or brown geotextile with some low-growing plants that would support poor/well-drained conditions would be more attractive....

 

Kris do I still need the top soil and 6" thick or could I get away with less?

 

If the ground is stoney, but otherwise in good heart, I would be inclined to tread it down as if to make a seed bed, get it level, and then put 2" of topsoil over the top to make a nice seedbed, but I'd be interested to see if Kris agrees.

I wouldn't go for turf. my main reason is a personal one which is that I think its very un-environmentally friendly - taking the top couple of inches off some Grade 1 framing land and the transportation of it - but that's obviously a decision for each person. My other views are that preparation is the same for Turf / Seed and Seed is a) a cheaper and b) there is more variety readily available (I doubt you will get a shade-tolerant turf at your local garden centre on a Saturday morning whereas it is highly likely that they will have a small box of shade-mix grass seed ) - particularly if you go online you are more likely to find a grass seed mix suitable to how smart a finish you want, how much TLC you are prepared to give it, how much foot-fall it will get, and how heavy the shade is.

But I would expect seed to need more watering through the Summer, if we have dry spells, in its first year, and you will need to try to stay off it for a potentially longer period of time initially, and it is longer before you can use selective weed killer chemicals on new-sown grass (all of which is somewhat easier if the grass is sown in the Autumn, and that also has the benefit that the weed seeds have shut down for Winter so the grass can get more of a head-start than a spring sowing ... but plenty of grass is sown in the Spring of course)

 

Kristen, thanks for your comments. Do you know anywhere where I can find out how much top soil I would need to add 2", is there an on line calculator or something?

 

Google will do it, provided you give it the units in a way that it understands (some abbreviations won't work), and then you need to put an "=" on the end of your "query". Need to pay attention to putting spaces between each element too.

2 metres x 6 metres x 2 inches =

gives me 600 litres

You can do

2 metres x 6 metres x 2 inches in cubic metres =
2 metres x 6 metres x 2 inches in cubic feet =

and even things like

16 C in F =

or

156 in bakers dozens =
or even
speed of light in furlongs per fortnight =

 

I'd agree with Kristen. It all depends on how good the soil that you have is ... we can't really guess that one for you!
Adding a layer of good quality topsoil to seed a new lawn into will always be beneficial, but likewise just good preparation and some addition of some organic matter to what you already have may be sufficient to get the grass off to a good start.