Is our government incapable of keeping their nose out?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. pete

    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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    I think its called the United Nations, they cant agree so it would never work.:)
     
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    • ARMANDII

      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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      History always repeats itself, maybe the century changes, fashion changes, political thinking changes [at least for a short time before changing again] but History does repeat itself. The present "why us?" when watching a Dictator killing men, women and children by the hundreds and indeed thousands is merely another repeat. The British Public did exactly the same before World War One and Two. In WWII governments dragged their feet while other countries were invaded and put to the torch and people like us said "why us?" and wrung our hands.
      America became isolationists after WW1 and had to have war declared on them by Japan after Pearl Harbour and then Germany declaring war on them. They didn't join Great Britain in the war because of patriotism or the wish to right a wrong, they did it out of practicality. After the war their mind set changed when they realised they were a Super Power and decided to become the World's Policeman.
      We were a Super Power before WWII just holding on to an Empire we weren't big enough to hold onto once other Countries decided they had territorial ambitions. Now we may not be militarily strong or financially strong but we still remain a country with a conscience. That conscience has led us into many clashes since WWII but I don't think any were ones that we jumped into but were forced upon us by circumstances and other Countries arguable territorial claims, such as the Falklands, or the killing of untold numbers of civilians. We've lost many a good serving man and woman in those "why us?" clashes and that's a price hard to live with but we still haven't lost our conscience.
      So why us? Well, if you forget the myth that we have been and are being led by the nose by the Yanks, then the simple answer is that we are one of the very few countries that asks "why us?" and is still standing there when other countries turn their faces away still muttering "why us". The UN has over the years become a politically divided organisation that can no longer function and the Maverick countries threatening war on others or killing their own people know it. I don't think anyone thinks the UN is worth anything these days and as one Politician said "If you got rid of the top 20 floors of the UN Building it would have no effects on world events"
      So here we are again asking "why us?. You might not think it but the arguments being used now to support the question "why us?" were being used over 70 years ago. So the answer to "why us?" is one we actually know despite our protestations..........because history has taught us we can't afford not to.
       
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      • Freddy

        Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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        ARMANDII, you've put into words something I couldn't.....
         
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        • Fat Controller

          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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          Cracking post @ARMANDII - and truly gives a perspective I hadn't considered.
           
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          • Jenny namaste

            Jenny namaste Total Gardener

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            A very good post Armandii and it's correct but it isn't helping me to change my mind, just making me more troubled about this latest saga.
            They just seem to get worse and worse,
            Jenny
             
          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            I agree with Armandii, but, and its a big BUT.
            How much better off is Iraq now Saddam has gone.

            Some countries have so many strange religious and political factions that without a dictator in charge they just become totally unstable without such control.
            Egypt being one.
            The whole middle east is about to erupt, and we cant afford that to happen,:nonofinger: can we now.;)
             
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            • ARMANDII

              ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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              Pete, no country or countries can stop what's happening in the Middle East. But is that sufficient cause to ignore the use of Chemical Warfare on civilians and the massacre of Syrian men, women and children? We can sit here in our relatively safe country and houses and pontificate about the wisdom of getting involved in affairs that we can argue are nothing to do with us.
              There's been wars fought in the Middle East for centuries over Religion, the struggle for political power, military gain and it's still going on. Even up to WWII Europe was heavily involved in some of those struggles and after that war we and Europe redefined Middle East countries drawing up new borders, supporting leaders that we possibly shouldn't have, leaders who became Dictators but were useful to us, and ignoring the future. But in doing that we couldn't change consequences of the thousands of years of Religious belief, the fall of many great Eastern Empires and Societies, that have lead to the present state of the Middle Eastern area. I served in the RAF in Aden, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman and Egypt and to be honest I couldn't understand the religious/political structures and beliefs as they were professing one thing and practicing the complete opposite. You may think our Politicians do the same but not to the extreme as in the Middle East. There are many reasons, both historical and present, that have ignited the dramatic changes and overthrows of harsh corrupt governments and leaders in the Middle East and leaving them in a state of upheaval, conflict and struggle. Some countries govern basically the same way that they have for centuries being run by the few and meeting any discord with violence and cruelty.
              Maybe the present state of affairs are the symptoms of a democratic, secular, or more moderate religious culture change that might lead to the creating of a more free better way in which the Middle East countries can govern themselves without being dictated to by the Military, Dictators, or religious leaders...............and then again maybe not.. I am not wise enough to know the answer to all that but I do know that despite all the perfectly good arguments why we should walk away and ignore the screams of men, women and children being brutally killed in which ever country it's happening in I would feel ashamed if we did.
               
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              • Jenny namaste

                Jenny namaste Total Gardener

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                Shame is something we all have to learn to live with Armandii as we have all done things that we knew were wrong. I feel a presence of Good and Evil on this planet. It has always been ever thus and always will be. I pray that good will prevail over evil in this latest test on mankind,
                Jenny
                 
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                • longk

                  longk Total Gardener

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                  Thank you Freddy and Armandii for your contributions. I dread threads like this as I feel rather isolated and tend to go off on one on these subjects. I personally know two people who came to the UK as asylum seekers (one from Cambodia and one from Iraq) and maybe that is why I come down on the side of the victims of regimes, but for the first time ever I have to agree with Cameron.

                  Not a whole lot on the whole (although we only hear about the bad stuff now), but the world is better off and a safer place. After Bin Laden had to flee Afghanistan he (amd Al Qaeda) was top of Sadams wish list and that would have been a terrible union for the "developed" world.

                  That is the terrible irony. However, the current unrest in Egypt is a result of the Brotherhood over zealous Islamisation. It does appear to me that religious fervour only thrives when it is hand in hand with poor levels of education (maybe this is an area where the west could do more?), but struggles to get a hold where education is better.

                  Sadly all the lessons of WW1 and 2 were ignored as we allowed the Yugoslav wars to claim the lives of over 100000 people (that is a very low estimate) right under our noses.

                  If we're still unsure about Syria then one other thing that needs to be considered - irrespective of who is responsible for this weeks atrocities (and my money is on the regime as if Al Qaeda had chemicals weapons they would have a "far better" use for them than giving them to Syrian rebels) we have to consider who we want to work with as far as getting rid of them. Maybe Russia and China have an ulterior motive for supporting the status quo in Syria?
                   
                • ARMANDII

                  ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                  Well, it's recognised that Religious organisations of whatever shade have in the past relied on control over education and knowledge to maintain their positions of power and in some areas of the world still do, as do certain Dictator and communist states.
                  It is a losing fight as technology is spreading knowledge throughout the globe and with knowledge comes questions and restrictive, power controlling organisations hate and fear that. It'll take time and, tragically, more loss of life before more cultures and countries become more aware and able to run their own lives in a free and undistorted way but I'm at least reasonably sure that it will happen. Then maybe the question "why us?" being asked partially in fear, timidness, or just selfishness will stop being asked.
                   
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                  • Freddy

                    Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                    I'm by no means a politically adept person, nor am I particularly wise. I just bring it down to a personal level.
                    There I am, just going about my day to day business. Then, some thug decides it's ok to kill half of my family. I look around me and there are folks just looking on while the rest of my family are in danger. They could help, but they just look on as they squabble amongst themselves and argue about the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of the situation....
                     
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                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                      On the contrary, Freddy, it's a wise man who knows the difference between Right and Wrong and that he should, and has to, do something to stop the massacre of men, women and children.

                      As Edmund Burke said:

                      "THE ONLY THING NECESSARY FOR THE TRIUMPH OF EVIL IS THAT GOOD MEN DO NOTHING"

                      That, for me, sweeps all the dithering, timid, self righteous, politically correct, and inward isolationist arguments into the Bin.
                       
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                      • pete

                        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                        Err, this has been going on for 2 yrs, thousands have died.
                        So its fine to kill people, with guns and bombs, but not chemicals?

                        Yes Armandii, we are relatively safe here, but we would possibly be a whole lot safer if we kept out nose out.
                        We have for 2 yrs.
                         
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                        • Hairy Gardener

                          Hairy Gardener Official Ass. (as given by Shiney)

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                          Personally, I think we have not stayed out, but, rather, sat back and watched in hope that the situation would , with the political pressure that has been applied resolve itself.

                          If I was walking down the road and happened across someone doing something that I considered to be wrong against another, do I just walk on by, ignoring the situation? No. I like to think I would try and help resolve the situation, even if this puts me in a position of discomfort, WHY? 'maybe it's because that is how I was raised and my respect for a fellow human, maybe it's the British way :old:

                          Very emotive thread this.
                           
                        • pete

                          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                          So, your walking down the street and someone is knocking ten bells out of his mate, you join in, but standing back out of harms way, you shoot the aggressor.
                          Probably in the confusion wound the victim also.

                          Collateral damage, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

                          The aggressor now dead leaves a power vacuum, which the wounded victim falls into once he gets himself sorted out.

                          How to win friends and influence people.
                           
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