Back on the baccy

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by clueless1, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    Ah, the waggy tail of a Volvo - been there a few times with the two I had mate, you have my sympathy.

    If it helps at all, I found that Pirrelli were the best for 'stick' (those, and Michelin) - I believe that Marangoni from Kwik-Fit are actually Pirelli's 'old' models, how good they are I'm not sure.

    I put Falken FK-452 on the Passat when I had it, and for budget rubber they were very good indeed;
     
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    • clueless1

      clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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      Apparently my tyres are 'Fulda Monterro 2', which apparently is a winter tyre. How odd then that they perform so badly on wet tarmac.

      I looked them up on google, and they get 'interesting' reviews. Most people seem to be giving them 4 or 5 stars, but then when you read the actual reviews they tend to talk about crap handling and increased braking distances. Maybe the people that wrote the reviews enjoy skidding around all over the place.

      I'm going to the scrappy at the weekend to see what they've got.

      Incidentally, I've just been out a bit ago, and the roads are all nice and dry now but its very cold. I found a deserted area and really threw the car around, and even flooring the throttle from a standing start on almost full lock and keeping my fun down til the turbo kicked in, resulted in nothing more than the most subtle tyre squeak. Put it on a wet surface and it would wheel spin at about 1/4 throttle from a standing start.
       
    • Fat Controller

      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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      That would suggest that its not a problem with the compound of the rubber, but rather the tread pattern - if a tyre is rubbish in the wet, its usually that the poor tread pattern can't displace the water on the road surface, which has the effect of lifting the tyre off the road just that wee bit, and in turn gives your car that 'Bambi' edge.

      I'm not a fan of Fulda rubber - had them once, funnily enough on my first Volvo, and they had few redeeming features (noisy, lack of grip etc); for budget brands, Falken and Kumho seem to be pretty decent (in fact, I would go as far as to say that Falken are an up and coming brand, as opposed to being budget), and bear in mind that often you can get decent deals on Bridgestone and Avon too.

      Having said that, there are some places that do a good trade in used tyres - there is one near me that is very popular (always busy) which is probably because the guy that owns the place checks each and every tyre and decides whether it is fit or not.
       
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      • clueless1

        clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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        I think I might know why she got a bit tail waggy. If there's one thing about the old Volvos that lets them down slightly, it is the slightly dire weight distribution. Its about 70/30 between load on the front tyres / load on the back ones, and there is a comment in the service record about the non-standard rear shocks.

        Carrying a boot load of weight home tonight, she handled like a dream even on the horrible wet road that she normally gets a bit twitchy on in the cold damp weather.

        Anyway, back on the baccy front, slight relapse to report. I forgot to put my patch on this morning, so by tonight, when I had reason to visit a neighbour who is a smoker, I've come away with a few rollies. I'm not too bothered though. I'll just smoke them then put a patch on tomorrow and crack on with the non-smoking.
         
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        • joolz68

          joolz68 Total Gardener

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          I did 5 month this yr and started again clueless..im sick of myself!,i can give up but not stayed stopped,3yrs is the longest i managed ..i just always feel out of sorts when i give up :dunno:x
           
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          • Lolimac

            Lolimac Guest

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            Keep at it Clueless :dbgrtmb:...a friend of mine gave up smoking a couple of years ago ,i say gave up...she is now a 'social smoker' by which i mean she only smokes when she goes out...don't know how she does it but it works for her...
             
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            • clueless1

              clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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              I have everything I need to give up, so will succeed. Tonight is just a minor blip.

              I'm going tank driving followed by paintball fighting in 2 weeks, and all my comrades are younger than me, so I need every advantage I can muster. Having lungs clogged with black tar and snot will not go in my favour:)
               
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              • pamsdish

                pamsdish Total Gardener

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                It is an ongoing battle, you never lose the urge, I have not had one for however long it says at the bottom of the page, but this morning coming back from first walk of the day with Maddie, I really fancied one, I always smoked more in mornings. :nonofinger:
                 
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                • Fat Controller

                  Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                  Over ten years since I gave up now, and I still occasionally fancy a cigarette - don't think it ever completely goes away.

                  @clueless1 - sounds like you need to be investigating the suspension on your car; could be tired shocks I suppose, but it could be that the springs aren't all that well matched to the car. Either way, I'm inclined to say that you want to be saving your pennies and restoring the suspension to the way that Volvo intended it. Never a cheap process I know, but you cannot put a price on the lives of yourself and your family.
                   
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                  • clueless1

                    clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                    I got some new second hand tyres put on today. @fat controller, see if this makes any sense to you. I told the lad at the tyre place that my tyres, in terms of tread, are good, but that they skid around all over the place on wet tarmac, and I may as well be on ice. He had a look and said straight away, "its the tread pattern. Its because they are 'rotational'". I thought he was made. Of course they are rotational, they are tyres, but I let him talk. He went on to explain that the tread pattern was better for loose snow or wet mud, but on water, even just a wet surface with the slightest sub millimeter film of surface water, the water compresses under the tread and lifts the tyres off, causing it to just spin and slide. I said that's exactly what happens when I'm driving it.

                    Anyway, £100 later, I have 3 Goodyear tyres and one Pirreli on (he couldn't find the fourth Goodyear:) ).

                    Driving home, what a difference. After 8 months of driving on the same tyres you kind of adjust to it and take it as normal, but I noticed the difference immediately. Its like driving a big comfy Volvo again. It was quieter, smoother, and I found myself using less throttle for the same speed. I also felt more 'connected' to the road. Steering was less twitchy, no wandering, and when I had to brake quite hard at one point, the distinct rumble/buzz I've become familiar with just wasn't there. Gothilda gave me the perfect response. I also realised that over the last few months, I have been subtly and subconsciously compensating on the steering wheel. I didn't have to do that today.

                    While at the tyre shop, I ask the lad what happens to the old tyres and said I'm after a load for the play area I'm building. He was over the moon (I know it costs them to dispose of them), and I came away with the boot space packed tight to the roof with old tyres:)
                     
                  • Fat Controller

                    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                    Now, the word 'rotational' could be confusing the issue here. Rotational tyres are most often referred to as 'directional' tyres, and these should only be fitted one way round (one sidewall is usually stamped to show its the 'outside' wall, or to show the direction that the tyre should rotate in normal use.

                    However, some Americans refer to tyres as 'rotational' (non-directional) when they are able to be fitted in either direction (or rotated around the car) - this is the rarer of the two understandings, however.

                    Now, I'll try and explain it as best I can, but I am no expert. Now, its my understanding that directional tyres were better at water displacement, making them a better bet in the wet - they quite often have one or more large grooves around the tyre which the smaller grooves feed into, thus aiding in the dispersal of water.

                    I have Goodyear EfficientGrip fitted on the Audi, which are directional:
                    Efficient Grip.png

                    The coloured arrows are to give an idea of the paths that are available for water to be squeezed out - worthy of note, that the arrows in the four vertical channels are not necessarily indicative of the actual water flow, as more often than not it will be slightly upwards from the ground (if you are following a car with directional tyres in traffic, you can often see a wee 'jet' of water springing up behind the tyre).

                    Non-directional tyres (the Pirelli P6000 is non directional for example) have tread patterns that will look the same no matter which way round the tyre is mounted:
                    P6000.png

                    Now, if the tyres you had were directional, then that makes it somewhat confusing that they were worse in the wet. I'm inclined to think that it hasn't been the directional bit that has been the problem, but the compound of the rubber itself - if the tyre has a low silica compound, it will lose flexibility as the temperature drops, which might be the deciding factor as to how efficient it is at dispersing water. :dunno:

                    One thing is for sure in my mind, the Goodyear and Pirelli are both better brands than Fulda - I would only ever have Fulda if my back was against the wall really.

                    If you can, try and see if you can pick up another Goodyear or Pirelli at some point, as its best not to mix tyre models on the same axle (now't wrong with having the front and rear different to each other), and I would also go as far as to suggest that you put the mixed pair on the front for now as some Volvo autoboxes are quite sensitive to tread and tread depth variances on the driven axle.

                    Hopefully @longk might be able to explain this better than I have (or correct me if I am wrong!)
                     
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                    • clueless1

                      clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                      Good explanation there FC, cheers.

                      The ones that came off, if I remember right, didn't have the usual grooves going all the way round, as per the vertical arrows in your top pic. In fact the tread on them was more reminiscent of really old tyres that I remember from when I was little.

                      The 'new' tyres are infinitely better. I've had more of a chance to test them out now, and they grip like mad. I even went to a patch of road where I used to always get a bit of tyre buzz at least, and more typically get a bit of a slide (tight hairpin bend going up a 1:4 gradient). I was able to induce a wheel spin because the road was wet and I floored it to the extent that the turbo howled, but it was only a slight spin, the tail barely flicked, and the car just accelerated in the intended direction. A few other times I used a bit more welly than I normally would, certainly more than would normally be needed to make her drift, yet she just kept tight hold of the road. For the most part I couldn't even get a slight tyre buzz.

                      I'm also finding that the engine is labouring less. One of the things that I was never entirely happy with was that sometimes I would disagree with the car's choice of gear. She would often be reluctant to change up until the revs were higher than I would have done it had she been a manual. Now I've noticed I'm more inclined to agree. She is making better use of the gears. Its not just wishful thinking either because I have tangible evidence so to speak. Exactly 50mph was a horrible speed before. At 50mph, she could never decide on the best gear so she'd change up, then change back down, the turbo would spin up, and she'd change up again, and keep doing that annoyingly changing up and down willynilly. Tried it today, and she just changes up, stays there, and purrs along at about 2000rpm. So hopefully I might find that in addition to a more pleasant and less terrifying ride, she might also give me a bit better fuel economy.
                       
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                      • Fat Controller

                        Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                        The tyre buzz could have been a result of uneven wear on the originals - sawtooth wear is not unknown on many cars especially larger ones due to the way that the manufacturers set up the rear suspension to give better ride hand handling; in short the wheels are ever so slightly in at the top and out at the bottom

                        /-----------\

                        As opposed to

                        |------------|

                        This induces more wear on the inner shoulder of the tyre, and the wear on the outer edge forms a sawtooth pattern; instead of the tops of the treads wearing flat, they develop a small peak to the front/leading edge:

                        [​IMG]

                        You can feel this if you run the flat of your hand from the front of the tyre round toward the back - your hand won't travel smoothly over the tread, whereas if you run your hand in the opposite direction, it will slide round easily.

                        Whilst it is a common issue to do with modern suspension, and on some cars it can be alleviated by having the four wheel alignment done/altered - - however, this has to be done within the specified parameters or the handling will be severely compromised.

                        Tyre choice also has a large bearing on things too, as some tyres will show the problem more readily than others; my Passat came fitted with a set of Dunlop boots that showed the problem really badly (the noise at 35-45 mph was similar to a knackered wheel bearing), however changing to the Falken's got rid of it for the most part, and when it did return as they wore in, it was definitely not as severe. Interestingly enough, I found that the sawtooth wear also gave very skittish handling (and that was a FWD car).

                        One final thing to bear in mind - some cars are a lot more sensitive to tyre pressures and tread patterns than others (both Jags I had were like that, as is the Audi), and as mentioned before Volvo are one that I know of that has 'sensitivities' - - I believe that there was a few models that couldn't handle two different tread depths on the rear axle; it led to the diff winding itself to destruction as one side was rotating just that bit more frequently than the other (pretty sure it was the AWD models with viscous diffs fitted)
                         
                      • longk

                        longk Total Gardener

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                        Spot on enough FC!

                        A few thoughts..................

                        Not really. Two very different sets of problems. Winter/snow tyres want to pack the snow into the tread pattern to provide traction. Wet weather requires the tread to displace the water away from the tyre. Then there is the issue of compound - more of that later.

                        The 940 has what I call a birdcage set-up on the rear axle. Basically the axle can rotate within the forward facing location arms (caused by the torque reaction of the differential pinion trying to rotate around the crown wheel) as it is mounted using soft rubber blocks. To counteract this (designed in) movement there is a centre arm that is mounted more rigidly at such an angle that as the axle rotates the forward mount of the centre link tries to lift the rear of the car up, or in reality pushes the rear axle into the tarmac. This is termed "anti squat".

                        Bit of both. A softer compound of tyre can allow water left under the tyre to be squidged into pockets of water, whereas a harder compound lacks this flexibility allowing more water to remain as a film between the tyre and the road.

                        Agree! There are also some cracking deals to be had on Yokohama too!

                        Stiffer/new rear springs will help to restore dynamic (as opposed to static) weight distribution.

                        Agree. On a road car shock absorbers are more of a comfort feature than handling. Of course, if the shocks are foo-barred it will alter dynamic weights and the speed at which the springs will work.
                        When replacing springs and shocks always replace in pairs and always new. If doing all round, use the same manufacturer front and rear.
                         
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                        • longk

                          longk Total Gardener

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                          Classic anti-squat feature. You can go too far and it will break traction though!
                          We used to use birdcages when we were racing on the ovals, and when racing in the States.
                           
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