Is it ok for the state to detain your kids at the weekend for nowt?

Blimey, what school did you go to? I didn't think any chilled teachers existed!

Well, there you go. Every cloud has a silver lining!

I remember writing lines, probably richly deserved for being the annoying little toerag I undoubtedly was. Must have had some effect seeing as I can remember it. I'm not sure what else they could have reasonably done to bring me into line. I had a few slaps at school which I bitterly resented.

 

I wish to state that my post#13 was no way intended to indicate the use of the funny button by three people in post #12 it was appreciated you acknowledged my post
I apologise for any harm caused and thank you

Jack McH

 

There's nowt wrong with your posts as far as I can see Jack. I don't agree that the cane is the answer, but that's my opinion, others will disagree with me on that point. All fair enough. It would be no good if we all had to have the same opinion all the time would it?

 

I put a funny 'cos I liked your sign off name Jack. I also agree with your line of reasoning,
Jenny

 

I clicked on "funny" because Jack Mc Thrasher Hammocklashing has a certain ring to it but then I'm from a generation where we did get a slap from a teacher. I remember getting slapped on the back of the legs as a nine year old for disrupting the class due to persistent talking. I didn't disrupt that particular teachers class again that's for sure! I had to tell my parents because there was a Parents Evening imminent and they made a point of attending them. I told my Mum what had happened and got another smack for getting a smack and was told in no uncertain terms to behave myself!

 

I remember getting a whack when I was 5 or 6 for saying 'oh god'. My crime was 'using the lords name in vain'.

I can't say it did me any harm but it certainly did no good. It just makes me think if ever the chance arose, it would be fun to stand in front of that teacher now and ask if they would like to hit me again now I'm no longer a small defenceless child.

 

I wasn't really affected by being smacked at school apart from being better behaved. It only happened once so it must have worked! I think it was my own fault. It was just the way things were back then. In saying that, I'm glad it doesn't happen now. As far as detention is concerned, I think the parents should be informed. Detention is quite effective...we had to sit there doing lines for an hour!

 

I reduced a teacher to tears during detention once when I was at school.

I'm neither proud nor ashamed of this fact, just neutral.

He ordered me to sit down. Now, the school rules were quite clear on the point of basic manners, and fair's fair, I replied "Sit down what?". What followed, in front of several naughty kids, went something like this:

Teacher (shouting in my face): "Sit down!"
Me: (matching his shouting): "Sit down what?"
Teacher: "Sit down now!"
Me: "Sit down now what?"
Teacher: "Just sit down!"
Me "Just sit down what?"
....
Teacher: "Sit down please!"

At this point I agreed to sit down, he'd said please. The conversation continued:

Me: "Ok"
Teacher: (still shouting): "Ok what?"
Me: (talking calm): "Ok, you said please, so I will sit down now"
Teacher: (now about to bust a blood vessel): "You addressed me, and when you address me you will address me as sir!"
Me (shouting again, but in control): "To the best of my knowledge you have not knelt before her majesty the queen and therefore you do not hold that title. If I ever find out that you have knelt before the queen and been knighted, then I will respect the decision of her majesty the queen and I will address you as sir, but until that time I will address you as Mr <suchandsuch> which is your correct title".

I was on detention for failing to do my homework the night before. The homework in question required me to watch a telly program that was going to be on, and then write notes on it. I'd explained at the end of the lesson when it was assigned that this would be impossible for me, as in our house we had made a family decision to get rid of the TV because we didn't agree with paying the license when we hardly ever watched it and weren't bothered about it.

 

With respect Clueless i think that is how times have changed over the years....

When i was at school when a teacher told you to 'sit down'...you sat down end of....and wouldn't think of questioning them....and they were always referred to as 'Sir and Miss' it was just the way it was...

 

Generally this was true when I was at school. Perhaps the only difference being that we are at a time when the very school that tried to teach respect failed in many ways to practice what they preached.

I knew a good many teachers that even today, I think back, and know they were good people. Then I had one or two that were not. For the most part the teacher in my story was a good lad, I thought so then and I still think so now, but he did have a tendency to treat people with contempt and attempt to belittle people. If you allow one person to humiliate and belittle you, where do you draw the line? It would not be acceptable to detain an adult for failing to watch a TV program in their own time, so why should it be acceptable to detain a child for the same? Despite this I did my side of the bargain. I turned up for detention, and was polite when I arrived at the room and 'reported in'. Unfortunately the teacher was not, and then and now I didn't not consider it acceptable to spoken to with such contempt, especially in front of others. I'm sure with the benefit of a few more years I would handle the situation differently now, insofar as I wouldn't shout, but that would be the only real difference in the way I'd handle it. Now I would probably just tell someone that we'll talk again when they're ready to show some common courtesy and then walk off.

Teachers are in the ultimate position of power. They are adults, with adult minds and adult bodies placed in charge of kids with immature minds and weak bodies. The teacher is there by choice, the pupil is not, and therefore the teacher has a responsibility to show respect and courtesy and to foster that respect. Teachers have such a massive influence over how kids will develop and what sort of person they will turn into. Many (most) teachers know that, and that's why I can remember most of my teachers with greatest respect. Unfortunately some teachers either don't know it, or worse, they know it and use it to their advantage, and if someone matches their efforts to belittle, its just tough luck on them really. Maybe they will learn something from it, after all, they do so schools are places for learning.

 

There’s no subject that compares with ’education’ for generating a lively debate. Everyone has had some experience of it, either as a pupil or parent. Some have experienced it as a pupil, teacher and parent (and grandparent too).

This thread started with a question about Gove, he like most politicians at national or local level derive their competence to determine policy on the assumption that they have had at least some education. Their authority is due to being elected representatives at national or local levels.

Teachers derive their competence to determine ‘policy’ and here I include all aspects of methodology (this includes discipline) through study of pedagogy, and examination followed by mentored induction, certification and continuing professional development and performance reviews.

From a politician’s stance, ‘education’ is a great vote catcher a super political football game with changes in the rules from time to time set to catch as many votes as possible or to boost rankings in the education world cup. However from the players (teachers) experiences it feels like being IN the football and with the goal posts being on the move from one game to the next.

Much of the responses to this thread have been focussed on ‘discipline’ and sanctions; the purpose of which is to modify undesirable and disruptive behaviour and promote learning.

I spent 17 years as a pupil and well over 30 in teaching and 28 as a head. During my years as a pupil the cane in my school in England and the tawse in my schools in Scotland were readily deployed as the standard quick fix to any deficiencies in behaviour or learning. At around the age of 10 I was caned on the hands for forgetting the number of a class library book I’d been reading. In secondary school in Scotland I was belted for getting less than 50% in a French vocab test. Rapped over the knuckles with the edge of a ruler by a young and incompetent and sadistic maths teacher and belted for poor marks in history. Did these encouragements do me any good? Far from it, it just encouraged me to keep my head down and try to stay invisible.

Roll the clock forward to the time where I was the one trying to teach. When I started teaching in the 1970s ‘child centred’ as opposed to ‘curriculum centred’ education was just starting. How one delivered the curriculum was based on the needs of the child. However education as such was more or less universally valued, unemployment was almost unknown, single parent households represented single percentages of school rolls and there was a general acceptance of ‘authority’.

Roll the clock a bit further into the 1980s and 1990s. Politicians of all parties have started getting into serious football with education. Curricular changes have to be implemented before the last change has been properly established and society has undergone radical change. Unemployment has risen, the drug culture is established, and the single parent family is now a significant proportion of school rolls and the aspirations of a large section of society regarding employment and the concomitant value of education are at a nadir.

The fix? Well I’m just glad I’m no longer involved as it takes a lot of time, effort and is emotionally draining. What it doesn’t involve is beating children or being horrible to them; that’s the quick and easy fix. The problem is that doesn’t actually work as a long-term fix, all it says to them is that ‘might is right’ and this is the way to go to be a success. The only way to succeed, and there’s no guarantee it will always work, is to engaged with the disaffected and disruptive, explore their motivation and problems and help them. Thumping them isn’t and never was an intelligent solution.

Keeping kids in after school may be one way of engaging with them providing it’s done in a well-considered and well planned manner and the time used to properly engage with them. However there will of course be a few parents who won’t like it, but there’s always the odd few who are agin authority and they are not confined to any socio-economic group. My biggest pains in the whatnot as a HT were parents who were lawyers and accountants whose kids could do no wrong, but who were developing into little lazy, spoiled brats.

Surprisingly our daughter after enduring a childhood being neglected by parents who spent more time worrying about other folk’s kids than her, is now doing the same thing in a Scottish secondary school in a role as a Principal Guidance Teacher and is sometimes in tears about all her little waifs and strays who have to endure some really horrible home experiences.

 

What an amazingly well balanced point of view Dave W - thank you for sharing your experiences with me today. I think you have a greater knowledge of teaching children than anyone else on here and I support everything you have explained to me.
I think your daughter must consider herself very fortunate to have had such devoted and hardworking parents who, in the example they set, enabled her to choose a very worthwhile and valued career,
with respect,
Jenny namaste

 

School in the 50's/60's a teacher was respected and on par with a Doctor, Lawyer,Architect
Now a school teacher is on par with the school cook or cleaner, and with NO discipline has no clout. kids run riot,
@clueless your incident would not have happened, you would have got the cane/tawse, and I guarantee the next day you would sit when told to do so without the drama
(a child in the 50's would not have had the nous to back chat a teacher anyway) because they HAD discipline

It is the same with modern parenting "do not smack" tell them to sit on the "naughty step"
They sit on the step and laugh up their sleeves at you, certainly not a punishment

Jack McH