Civic Duty: I've been called!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by "M", Feb 18, 2014.

  1. shiney

    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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    That's what most people, who have been in my company, usually say! :dunno:
     
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    • ARMANDII

      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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      Well, I can say from work experience, Pete, that a Judge is responsible overall for everything that happens in a court case, in the way it is conducted, the direction it takes, and his learned advice and directions to a Jury should it be needed. A Judge's world is one that is built on respect, experience, an ability to make hard decisions, and a knowledge that any judgements made in his court can affect peoples lives beyond comprehension.

      Actually, Pete, our Jury system has it's origins in the Viking settlements in England and has had a tortuous route to get to the present system which works well, so well that many other countries have adopted it.

      Some people in a Jury would rather not be there but also realise the need for them to be there. I'd rather have 12, hopefully neutral, people listening to evidence, being given time to assess and argue the credibility of that evidence, then coming to a decision on the basis of that evidence than some of the other legal systems within this world. The whole system has evolved over a long period of time with improvements and adjustments being made along the way. But it is a system constructed by Humans and because all involved in the court cases are human from the the Judge, Jury, Barristers, Lawyers, Solicitors, Clerk of the Court, Ushers etc it is subject to human failings. I must admit I have had doubts about some of the Jury Members in some cases I have observed but in all of those cases I've always agreed with the outcome.


      The Judges I know have my deepest respect. They are compassionate, cynical, fair, and sometimes possess a "black humour" that is used to protect them from the trauma of all the evils that pass before them in Courts. They are subject to, but ignore, pressures from all directions in Court Cases that would drive some people to crumble. Sometimes their decisions regarding punishments are at odds with what their heart and minds says, but they have to follow the Letter of the Law and precedence. Where they can they will introduce humanity and compassion while being neutral. The following extract gives you some idea of what a Judge has to do and be.
      The Role of the Judge

      Judges play many roles. They interpret the law, assess the evidence presented, and control how hearings and trials unfold in their courtrooms. Most important of all, judges are impartial decision-makers in the pursuit of justice. We have what is known as an adversarial system of justice - legal cases are contests between opposing sides, which ensures that evidence and legal arguments will be fully and forcefully presented. The judge, however, remains above the fray, providing an independent and impartial assessment of the facts and how the law applies to those facts.

      Many criminal cases - and almost all civil ones - are heard by a judge sitting without a jury. The judge is the "trier of fact," deciding whether the evidence is credible and which witnesses are telling the truth. Then the judge applies the law to these facts to determine whether a civil claim has been established on a balance of probabilities or whether there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in criminal cases, that the suspect is guilty. Anyone who faces five years or more in prison if convicted of a crime has the right, under the Charter, to request a jury trial, and many defendants facing serious offences such as murder opt to have a jury hear their case. The jurors become the triers of fact and assess the evidence while the judge takes on the role of legal advisor, explaining the law to the jurors. The jurors then retire to deliberate on a verdict. In criminal cases the jury's verdict, either "Guilty" or "Not Guilty" must be unanimous.

      If the defendant is convicted of a crime, the judge passes sentence, imposing a penalty that can range from a fine to a prison term depending on the severity of the offence. In civil cases the judge decides whether a claim is valid and assesses damages, grants an injunction or orders some other form of redress to the plaintiff, unless a jury has been empanelled to make these decisions.
       
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      • Ellen

        Ellen Total Gardener

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        Good luck!

        My sister did jury service at the end of last year. She thoroughly enjoyed it & made new friends with a couple of the other members :)
         
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        • pete

          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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          I still think dressing up in funny clothes and wigs makes it look like some kind of farce.;)
           
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          • "M"

            "M" Total Gardener

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            So stop doing it then! :doh:
            Going to wear something more "sensible" myself ;)
             
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            • ARMANDII

              ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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              I have daily contact with the Judges. Some time ago one of the Crown Court Judges [who shall remain nameless] walked past me in full regalia, and seeing my lips twitching, looked at me with a self suffering smile on his face and muttered "Not a word.........not a word" and carried on as dignified as he could to the Court. I have to say that I do understand the value of the tradition of the Courts and that Gowns and Wigs do lend weight to the authority of the Crown and High Courts. While some of the Judges will perhaps gently infer their negative thoughts regarding the dress I know that they are also fiercely proud of the tradition behind it and that in the Courts they are representing the Queen.
              Despite some negative comments about the Courts and Judges from the Public I think a "behind the scenes" period for some of the critics might just open their eyes slightly and change their opinion. Some of the crimes and versions of Humanity that pass through our Courts are beyond description and I sometimes wonder how not just the Judges but all those in the Courts manage to sleep at night without nightmares. Perhaps if people were to sit in the Galleries and watch a case they would understand more after seeing the reactions of families of victims and accused sitting in the next seats to them during the Court case.
              We have an adversarial system in the UK which can be stressful to witnesses, victims and accused and it is a responsibility of the Judge to make sure that Barristers, Lawyers etc don't exceed their own bounds of responsibility. So a Judge has a wide parameter of responsibilities that I, for one, would not like to have and in my opinion a Judge's job is not a easy one.
              As regards "dress and costume" I have to say that there are civil appointments, not within the Courts, where people are appointed to what are just ceremonial positions serving no practical purpose whatsoever. The cost of of the medieval costume is unbelievable with some of the shoes being handmade and costing the higher end of several hundred pounds and that is all paid for by your taxes. So believe me there are a lot of people out there wearing "funny clothes", being given a ceremonial "job" which doesn't contribute to anything in Society, while Judges do a hard job that is perhaps not as appreciated as it should be.
               
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              • Marley Farley

                Marley Farley Affable Admin! Staff Member

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                [​IMG] Well said that man.. :SUNsmile:
                 
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                • lost_in_france

                  lost_in_france Total Gardener

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                  I was on jury duty a few years ago and had two cases during my stint and a lot of sitting around and waiting between these cases. I found the process fascinating, not least because of the differing personalities on the jury panel, and the affect this had on the verdicts. The second case started with a 7/5 split in favour of a guilty verdict when we took an initial poll. The judge had asked for a majority verdict so discussions started and gradually a very articulate, persuasive, stong minded person started to persuade some of the other panel members to waver in their views and switch to 'not guilty'. The deliberations went into a second day and as it was getting further away from a majority the judge said she would take a 10/2 verdict. It had got to 9/3 in favour of not guilty getting towards the end of the second day and about to go into a 3rd when one of the jury suddenly changed her mind and the 10/2 not guilty verdict was achieved. As we were on our way out of the court I heard this juror tell another that she made her sudden change of heart as it was her grand daughter's 1st birthday party the next day and she didn't want to miss it by still being stuck in the jury room.

                  I haven't written this to slag off our jury system, I can't think of a better way of doing it, but just to show that all sorts of human factors and personalities feed into the verdicts given.
                   
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                  • pete

                    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                    I noticed you left out stressful for the jury also, still say you should have the right to decline.

                    The rest are either on trial or being very well paid, the jury, (I believe get a pittance), are shunted around, and told to go back to their place of work if they are not wanted.
                     
                  • ARMANDII

                    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                    You'll find, Pete, that the Jury members are treated with courtesy, care and are well looked after while waiting around during the court case. The Judge will always keep an eye on the Jury's welfare and mental state, while the Clerk of the Court and Ushers will be there making sure all is well and that they have all they need. I believe the question of payment has been "chewed" over by various organisations but all have come to the conclusion that being a Juror is a Civil responsibility and being paid to do so can lead to legal innuendos by parties with agendas about the neutrality of any Jury being paid by a Government to sit in a case.

                    Well, I didn't do that deliberately for any purpose, I assure you!!! Jurors, willing or not, come from all walks of Life and all have different approaches to the experience, bringing with them despite the "vetting" of defence and prosecution lots of bias, opinions, weaknesses and strength. Yes, for some it can be stressful due to their mental makeup or more likely due to the horrific nature of the case they are Jury on.
                     
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                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                      So civil responsibility doesn't pay the bills, I often wonder how jury members manage to sit on cases that take many weeks.
                      I know these are not the run of the mill type cases.
                      For instance, I assume you need to live, say in London, to be press ganged into some of the Old Bailey cases?
                      These often go on for months.
                       
                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                      There's always a concern about endangering a job or being able to pay the bills when called to duty. Here's an extract that I often have to refer to when waylaid by a member of public even though it has nothing to do with me.

                      Loss of earnings and other expenses
                      Length of jury serviceTime spent each dayMaximum daily amount you can claim
                      First 10 days4 hours or under£32.47
                      First 10 daysOver 4 hours£64.95
                      Day 11 to day 2004 hours or under£64.95
                      Day 11 to day 200Over 4 hours£129.91
                      After day 2014 hours or under£114.03
                      After day 201Over 4 hours£228.06
                      Travel and parking costs
                      How you travel to courtThe court will pay
                      Bus or undergroundCost of the ticket
                      TrainCost of the ticket (2nd class return fare)
                      Bicycle9.6p per mile
                      Motorcycle31.4p per mile
                      Car31.4p per mile - ask the court for permission if you need to pay for parking
                      Car - for one other juror as a passenger4.2p per mile
                      Car - for each additional passenger3.2p per mile
                      TaxiThe fare - ask the court for permission before using a taxi
                      Food and drink
                      Length of time each day you’re away from home or workThe court will pay up to
                      Up to and including 10 hours a day£5.71 per day
                      Over 10 hours a day£12.17 per day
                      If the court asks you to stay overnightThe court will arrange accommodation
                       
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                      • pete

                        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                        So for the first 10 days you are on something similar to minimum wages, sounds a bit grim.
                        I assume the tax man takes some of it back.
                         
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                        • Victoria

                          Victoria Lover of Exotic Flora

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                          Hey M, you appear 'excited and honoured' to be chosen ... so go with it if that is what you want. You seem to me to be an honest person with conviction and I am positive you will be a good juror!

                          I was 'called' in the 90s in Buckinghamshire and asked to be excused because of my working in criminal law in the States for ten years. I was more or less a 'paralegal' and for years was involved in 'jury venire' in our town in Alabama and made court appearances weekly. In the 60s/70s in Alabama I had to deal with the KKK and one murder a month in our then small town (less than 250,000). To me it was always 'an eye for an eye' ... I didn't think I could honestly sit on a jury and so was given permanent exclusion.

                          PS For those who do not know, 'jury venire' at least in the States is where the jurors are chosen and I for years kept records of everyone who was called to jury duty and all the lawyers in the town came to me to ask what records I had ... because you can dismiss folk because of race, colour, creed, criminal records, whatever ... and certainly in America these records are kept and recorded ... so ... if you are a racist you will be noted on record as not to be on a case with such involved. I think you can follow any other incidents such as gun-toting folk, accident prone idiots ... etc, etc, etc ...

                           
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                          • lost_in_france

                            lost_in_france Total Gardener

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                            I think it will depend on your employer. I've mostly worked in the public sector and when I was on jury duty I still got paid my salary, minus the court allowance. So it may just have been one government dept paying another but I didn't lose out. I know there were some guys who were self employed though who were losing a lot of money - one was excused as he ran his own business and there was no one to cover so if you can make a good case you can get out of it.
                             
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