EU: are you in or out? [POLL]

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Daisies, May 1, 2014.

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EU: are you in, out or undecided?

  1. IN

    14 vote(s)
    38.9%
  2. OUT

    17 vote(s)
    47.2%
  3. Haven't a clue!

    5 vote(s)
    13.9%
  1. pete

    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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    I think you can look much closer to home first Dave, its not just a American thing, it is actually world wide, all countries do very similar things, its only that the US has more influence around the world that makes them stand out.
     
  2. DIY-Dave

    DIY-Dave Gardener

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    @clueless1

    I agree with many of your points and yes all countries are guilty, just some seem to make a habit of it.

    @pete

    I am looking closer to home, very close in fact at the war fought in Angola which was basically the US, South Africa and Savimbi's UNITA against the MPLA and Russia.

    When The Russian backed MPLA rebels started a guerrilla war in Angola, South Africa was dragged in with the US as it backer.
    Now while the US was crying foul (and rightly so) of the S.A. government's apartheid policy, every Friday a C-130 loaded with weapons would land at a certain airforce base to aid both the SA troops and UNITA.
    You see the US needed raw materials from Angola (and SA) thus was happy to "help" out.
    Mid way through the war, oil of a sudden became more important and guess what, the oil rich parts of Angola where in the hands of the MPLA and almost overnight all support for SA and UNITA stopped just as they preparing the final push into the capital Luanda.
    The MPLA was now the new found friend of the US.

    I served in that war, not on the front lines with weapon in hand but back in an office with spectrum analyzer and other bits of equipment.
    Some of my friends were not so lucky and were on the battle field, needless to say I never saw a few of them again and others have psychological scars to this day.

    Shall we discuss America's little game in Iraq next?
     
  3. Ellen

    Ellen Total Gardener

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    @clueless1 what about Napoleon, do you think his vision would have counted as a united europe? I know he wanted an empire but in his days view that would maybe have felt the same?
     
  4. shiney

    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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    Most countries have been guilty of wanting to rule or to influence the rule of other countries. There have been many nutters that thought they were the only ones that could do the job in their small or large part of the world. These nutters have varied between being individuals to 'governments' or parts of governments.

    Ellen, you're right, Napoleon was one of them. He may not have started out thinking that he should rule Europe but he certainly thought so towards the end - and thought he was an invulnerable Emperor. If it wasn't for Talleyrand he may have succeeded!

    As global travel has become easier, so has outside influence become easier.

    The wish to rule other countries or parts of the world have been inspired by megalomania, self-aggrandisement or even misguided benevolence.

    Amongst others there was Temujin (Ghengis Khan) and the Mongol Empire, the Russian Empire, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Umyadd Caliphate, Achaemenid Empire, Ottoman Empire and, the largest of all - the British Empire.
     
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    • Marley Farley

      Marley Farley Affable Admin! Staff Member

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      No.........................
       
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      • clueless1

        clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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        Good question, and I see Shiney has provided a much better answer than I could, as for some reason that chapter of history somehow escaped my interest entirely, so the only five things I know about Napolean are these: 1) He was not as short as his reputation suggests, or he was, but so was everybody then, 2) He was left handed and that's why much of the world drives on the wrong side of the road and 3) He was french, 4) He actually planned the channel tunnel but for whatever reason it was never attempted (maybe because they didn't have the kit in those days) and 5) His army was pretty much seen off by the Russians, who lured them into Siberia as winter approached.

        Beyond that, I don't really know much about him or his intentions.
         
      • pete

        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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        I stick by what I said @DIY-Dave , all governments are playing political games, its just that the US have a much greater influence around the world that they show up.
        For instance, dont you believe Britain also, has at times, made strange u turns on foreign policy, you only back the ones that are going to be the most beneficial to you.
        Its common sense, you look after No1, I just wish we were looking after No1 more often.
         
      • Daisies

        Daisies Total Gardener

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        To bring this back to my question ....

        I am interested that no-one has commented upon the commercial side of this. Does it mean more work, less work, more imports/exports, less? I know there are benefits vis a vis travel and such, but I was thinking about jobs and gross domestic product and all that!
         
      • DIY-Dave

        DIY-Dave Gardener

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      • DIY-Dave

        DIY-Dave Gardener

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        Absolutely and sometimes didn't even bother to decide which side they should support, the six day war is a good example where they were dishing out weapons to both sides.
         
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        • clueless1

          clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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          We drive on the left side because the left side is the right side and the right side is the wrong side. Napolean was left handed, hence why he made so many drive on the right, which is the wrong side of course.

          I couldn't be bothered to read the link to be honest, because I already know why we drive on the left, which is the right side, it is because most people are right handed and so if someone was going to start a running battle with you, you want to make the attack from your right, so you can fight them with your best hard while holding the rains in your left.
           
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          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            Apart from being a very independent people they are also a country due to their oil income.:snork:
             
          • shiney

            shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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            You're, sort of, right with a few twiddles.

            In those days he wasn't considered French as he was a Corsican! His spoken French was not easily understood as he had a very strong Corsican accent and was brought up speaking the local language.

            Although his army was decimated by the Russian weather (so was the Russian army) it was the following series of wars that finished him. This was mainly because Talleyrand persuaded some of his allies to swap sides. When you have time it would be interesting to read up on Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-PĂ©rigord (known everywhere as Talleyrand) who was A very clever politician, Minister for Foreign Affairs and Prime Minister of France. After he was removed from office he was still consulted regularly by Napoleon. When he realised that Napoleon was becoming a megalomaniac he started planning to try and arrange peace in Europe by using all his connections with Monarchs, Emperors etc.
             
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            • DIY-Dave

              DIY-Dave Gardener

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              Interestingly, Italy had signed over Corsica over to France a few years before he was born there.
               
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              • shiney

                shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                I've just dug something out from deep in my memory. :ideaIPB: If you want to know more about Napoleon's wars and the politics, wheeler dealing etc. around them you could read an old novel by Dennis Wheatley called The Irish Witch. It's in one of his series of black magic books but makes it a more interesting way of learning about the battles and wars of the period.

                Just dug out this info from the net on the book but don't know whether it can be downloaded

                http://vintagepopfictions.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/irish-witch-by-dennis-wheatley.html
                 
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