Israel

We dont have freedom of speech in the UK.

I'm not referring to this forum, but the UK in general.

 

Kind of agree Woo.
I'm still waiting for the Israelis to show the world the devastation that is being caused by the Hamas rockets.
I dont doubt they are firing them, but why not show us the burnt out buildings and loss of life in the civilian Israeli population.

They, the Israelis, say they want to destroy the tunnels.
Not been there , not seen them, but a few hundred pounds of explosive in a tunnel can cause an awful mess, I would assume, I cant see as destroying tunnels is that difficult even if done from their side of the border.

 

One other thought - I do wonder if Israels actions would be quite so trenchant if Iran were not poking their noses in through their support of Hamas?

 

Good point. I hadn't considered that. So, Israel is using Palistinian individuals - civilians - to demonstrate their military ferocity to Iran? And the rest of the region for that matter. There is a lot of trouble round there at the minute, so it would make sense to make yourself look 'ard, but like the school bully picking on the softest kid to make himself look 'ard, Israel has chosen a target that is absolutely no match and in doing so is just making itself look like a bit of a small bird that is sometimes blue and sometimes great.

 

I dont doubt Hamas might need obliterating from the face of the earth, I just think totally destroying a civilian population in a small place which had been under siege for years is not quite the right way to go about it.
As for Iran, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them, but as long as they stay inside their own borders, it has nothing to do with us.

 

To be fair, Israel is not targeting them but it does accept that in using a sledgehammer to crack a nut there will be casualties.

Nice analogy. But the thing about bullies is that they hunt in packs and the softest kid is the loner in the playground. So maybe it's the other way around, and the soft kid has had enough and flipped (which is what usually happens in the school situation).

I hate resorting to Wikipedia, but here are a couple of tables....................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...el#Casualties.2C_Fatalities_and_rockets_fired

The numbers involved surprised me, as I had them a fair bit lower than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2000s

(Not all of those were claimed by Hamas, but the numbers are scary)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...el-and-Hamas-release-underground-footage.html

I'm too young, but I'm wondering if any members can remember the reaction of the general public to the IRA bombings in Guildford, Birmingham and the M62? Were the British people saying "we've asked for it for the way that we treat the Irish"? Or was the publics reaction more strident? I asked about these as they were concentrated into quite a short period.

 

Let's also remember that Egypt has totally sealed its borders with Gaza since the conflict began. They have also actively been destroying the tunnels from Egypt to Gaza for about a year now.

 

Longk, it appears that they have killed nearly as many Israelis in suicide bombings since 1999, as the Israelis have killed in the past two weeks.

Ireland is a bit different as half the population want to remain part of the UK.

 

Sledgehammer to crack a nut, I agree. But if we had had to endure fifteen years of sustained attacks by the Republicans on the Mainland would the British people have tolerated it?

I agree, but my point was not about the rights and wrongs but about the mood of the people at the time.

 

Pete is right, we no longer have freedom of speech, people have posted opinions on twitter and are immediately in trouble for it, Jeremy Clarkson is always in trouble for being too outspoken even when it is in jest, how is that freedom of speech??

Val

 

Another female perceptive here and I wouldn't be sitting on the fence.

I'm disgusted at the Israeli government's action against a helpless, down trodden nation of people who have effectively been kept prisoner for years. These people are sitting targets and I believe the Israel Government fully intend to wipe these people out as they are being allowed to, as the rest of the world stands by.

Why do Hamas build tunnels? These tunnels have been used largely to bring supplies into Gaza. Granted, they have also used them to enter Israel and carry out attacks but what to expect humans to behave like when they have lived under the conditions they have endured for generations?

Where is the proof that Hamas is storing weaponry in UN run schools and hospitals? I don't believe the aid workers would allow their own lives to be put at such risk, never mind all the good work they are trying to carry out. I think this is Israeli propaganda put out to be allowed to carry out this genocide.

I looked up the definition of terrorism, "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Hamas is an elected government who where democratically elected, but I think it's convenient to just right them off a terrorists. Isn't what the Russian soldiers doing in Ukraine terrorism yet nobody is calling Putin a terrorist in every news report.

The northern Ireland residents aren't and weren't fenced in.

I'm not aware of the Egyptians slaughtering civilians in droves when doing this.

In summary, I think we need to stop going on and on about the past and think about the future. Dialogue is the only way to resolve this, it's time for the Israelis to listen to the Palestinians , they are only asking for the freedom and standard of life, to live healthily and in peace. (I'm aware I've just summarized hugely there)

And finally, picking up Jenny's point, if there were women at these talks, I think the chances of peace is greatly increased.

 

I reply in the spirit of debate @**Yvonne** ..................

I agree that the response is disproportionate. I would much rather have seen a concentrated assassination policy, but that takes time.
However, the burden of their isolation lies firmly on the shoulders of the terrorists in their midsts. Israel has reached a state of peace with Egypt, Jordan and the PLO. Hamas rules out ever accepting the right of Israel to even exist and will not enter any talks.

Wrong. There are exclusive cargo only crossings in Israel and Egypt. The tunnels are there for paramilitary use only.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ting-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian

There has been a total of three such finds now by the UNRWA.

No they're not, but like Israel they have lost their patience with Hamas and want them out.

Ultimately dialogue is the only way to resolve this - I agree. But Hamas will not talk to Israel. It doesn't even believe it has a right to exist. Which leads to this.................

Hamas is only recognized as a terrorist organisation by the US, EU (so that is every European government), Japan, Egypt and Jordan, not as a democratically elected government. There may be more, but I know those ones for certain.

Why?
I may be wrong, but I think that the ultimate solution for the future of Gaza lies in the future stability of Egypt. Like Gaza it is a predominantly Sunni Muslim country. If Egypt shows itself to be stable and Hamas leaves Gaza may have a future there.