Blackberry&elderberry wine not fermenting ...

Thanks Scrungee for pointing me in the right direction to this part of the forum

wonder if anyone can help please?
started making blackberry and elderberry wine two weeks ago but it doesn't seem to be getting very excited about fermenting!
We loosely followed a recipe we googled (cant find it now!)
3kg blackberries
1kg elderberries
3kg sugar
juice of a lemon and juice of an orange
wine yeast made according to instructions (which we bought from a reputable brewing shop in Sheffield) and on guidance from lady in said shop...
water.

we sterilised everything carefully prior to use and were quite strict about this.
we mushed up the berries,
added the sugar, dissolved in 2L boiling water, which we cooled to room temp before adding to the berries,
added the water (we used cooled boiled water at room temp),
added the yeast straight to the must (as per brewing shop ladys instructions), ensuring we used the right amount for the volume we made, which I think was about 1 heaped teaspoon per gallon.
we covered it, kept it somewhere warm for a week, then syphoned it off the mush (again being careful to ensure equipment was sterile) into a fresh sterile tub, fitted airlock and put in airing cupboard. there is just over 4 gallons in the tub.
its been in there a week and isn't doing anything. Ive given it a stir with my sterile paddle which has caused a bit of bubbling, but that was a couple of hours ago and it seems to have stopped.
I've checked the yeast is ok, as I googled for a solution to this and one said to check the yeast is ok by adding it to a cup of warm water with a couple of teaspoons of sugar, and its going crackers in the cup!

The original recipe was in lbs and ounces, but we converted to kgs and adjusted as we had more elderberries that the recipe said. We also tripled everything due to the weight of fruit!

anyone have any suggestions/solutions please?

 

Have a look at the table in this website, see if that helps

http://www.yobrew.co.uk/stuck.php

 

think ive got it sorted ..,.i think the temp wasn't quite high enough; moved it to near a radiator i put on for 15 minutes and its going like the clappers now!!

 

Nice one Sue

I'm going to be struggling to brew over winter, best get on and get the greenhouse sorted, at least it'll be warm during the day.

 

It may have almost fermented out during the 7 days it was in the bucket. Straining often sets the yeast back a bit, plus it releases CO2 in solution and the strained wine needs to become saturated with CO2 again before the bubbling really starts again.

It's always a good idea to start the yeast before pitching it as this ensures it's OK and you don't have all you hard earned berries sitting in a bucket going off because the yeast is dead, and I've known yeast straight from the homebrew shop not to work before. You also only need 1 tsp/sachet for 5 galls (I push it to 6).

When it was in the bucket for 7 days you should have noticed the fruit keep rising to the top (with the CO2 from the fermentation) and have been pushing it back down at least once a day. Leaving a long handled spoon in the bucket avoids the need to keep sterilizing one.

A few things, did you

1) add yeast nutrient (1 tsp/gall)?
2) add Pectolase (1 tsp/gall) to destroy ant pectin in the fruit and ensure it clears properly?
3) add Campden tablets to the fruit/water/sugar mix (1 tab/gall) to deal with any nasties in the fruit and leave 24hrs? Another method is pouring boiling water over the fruit, but I find CTs more successful, especially when the fruit is straight from the freezer.
4) buy a hydrometer and take any readings? It's only a few quid for a hydrometer and cylinder from Wilkos.

If you let me know how much water in addition to the initial 2L you added, I'll check out the whole recipe and make sure that a high OSG isn't the cause of it slowing down (but from the para below I don't suspect this to be the case). If nutrient wasn't added addition of some might help speed things up (but again, if it was a really low OSG, then basically it's fruit 'cider' strength and YN wouldn't have made any difference.

@sue young I do have serious concerns about

1) only using 4Kg of fruit for 4 galls of wine, 2lbs 4ozs/gall when I would expect a minimum of 3lbs and perhaps 4lbs.
2)only using 3 Kg of sugar in 4 galls of wine. The potential ABV also appears very low as you've only got about 1lb 12ozs of sugar/gall (including both the added sugar and fruit sugars), which may be why it could have fermented out in the bucket. This very low amount of sugar per gall would mean an OSG of about 1.065, and a potential ABV of only 8%.

In fact it's even worse than that because you sat that you now have over 4 galls + some liquid would have been removed with the wet pulp when strainijg. Are you sure you've followed the recipe instructions to the letter, and not perhaps added say a whole 3 galls of water instead of adding water 'to 3 galls'? The bubbles now coming from the wine could be CO2 coming out of solution (AKA de-gassing) due to the warmth.

P.S. I might of missed something because I've been up since early this morning and I'm feeling weary from a very long drive taking my daughter to Uni. (I've booked her a plane ticket to get back at the end of term so I don't have to do that again too soon, and it's cheaper than the petrol cost!).

 

Another look at it now I'm not knackered from an early start and nearly 8hrs of motorway driving :

So it appears to have been 2 weeks since the yeast was pitched, now a guesstimate of the OSG, sugar content and potential alcohol by volume:

Sugar content - 3Kg Blackberries containing 8% sugar by weight, 1Kg Elderberries containing 10% sugar + 3Kg added sugar = 7lbs 5ozs total sugar content.

Liquid volume - 2L/0.44 gall water to dissolve sugar, 0.42 gall increase in volume from 3Kg of sugar, 0.18 gall of juice in the Elderberries, 0.57 Blackberry juice = 1.61 galls + a yet unknown additional volume of added water. If the "just over 4 gallons" is assumed to be 4 gall 1 pint and that the liquid in the strained, wet pulp was 1.5 pints then the total original volume of liquid was 4 gall 2.5 pints/4.3 galls.

OSG, etc. - 7lbs 5ozs in 4.3 galls. is 1lb 11ozs/gall, the OSG would have been an extremely low 1.062 and have a potential alcohol content of only 8% (and even less if there's more than the 4 galls 1 pint I've assumed for "just over 4 gallons". That 8% is below the minimum of 10% recommended for long term storage.

Water additions - Now I'll see if I can calculate how much water was added. Total original volume of 4.3 galls less the known volume of 1.61 galls = 2.69 galls + 0.44 (used to dissolve sugar) = 3.13 galls total added water, so it would appear I was correct in my post above that 3 galls of water was added to quantities of fruit and sugar suitable for only 3 galls of wine, and has increased the volume to over 4 galls.

Action required - You need to add more fruit and sugar, but adding enough of each will further increase the volume. It would require a further 7lbs of fruit and another 4lbs 8ozs of sugar to get the fruit over 3lbs/gall, the OSG to a reasonable 1.083 and the volume to 5 galls (do you have capacity in your bucket/fermnenter for that additional stuff?). This could not be fermented separately and blended with the weaker wine as the sugar content would be far too high for fermentation.

I wish you could find the source of that recipe, they should be named and shamed!

Look out for fruit wine recipes that use 6 pints of water + sugar + fruit per gallon as they will produce just over the amount of wine required to fill a one gall demijohn, which is normally around 4.75 litres, slightly more than the 4.546 litres in a gallon. Flower wine recipes should use 7 to 8 pints of water as there's no juice in the ingredients and tend to use less sugar than full bodied fruit wines.

Beware of recipes on USA sites as they are for smaller US gallons (1 Imperial gall = 1.2 US galls, 1 US gall = 0.83 Imperial galls) so you need to increase both the sugar and fruit by 20% to make an Imperial gallon.

 

wow Scrungee that's awesome, thank you so much for taking the time to go through everything.
Off to get a hydrometer tomorrow, and more fruit and sugar!!
I suspect we added way too much water when we'd strained off the fruit ... we thought it seemed excessive but hey ho, you live and learn.
is it too late to rescue it?

the recipe was one my other half found on a website and scribbled down - he tried finding it again but couldn't remember where he found it ... if I find it i'll link it for you to look at.

thanks again for taking so much time to figure out where we went wrong, its very kind of you,



edited to say, I think it was an American site :(

 

They got different sized gallons and everythin

 

No, add extra fruit and sugar as above reccomendations.

I did add that possibility after calculating I was about 0.13 galls out, as .07 galls out would have been closer using US galls