Would you go back?

Re: The miners. I worked in the pits until the late 60s and when I left as a skilled underground electrical engineer I was earning just over �£1000 pa (with overtime). I moved into education and it was a further five years and my first promoted post before I managed to hit �£1000 pa again.(but overtime was essential and unpaid).
Arthur Scargill's predecessor Joe Gormley who in my opinion was far brighter and less self promoting than Scargill had a very astute grasp of how to handle management - "Get them by the b--ls lads, their hearts and minds will follow".

If you want a wallow in some 50s and 60s nostalgia have a look at this

http://www.dj.warburton.btinternet.co.uk/50s60s.htm

 

What if the bears hadn't been wiped out, what if we still had wolves in the UK or wild boar.
It just seems that the "country folk" only want to allow to live the animals that dont give them any hassle, all others should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Its up to the person concerned to keep the fox out and protect their animals.
Admittedly deseases spread by foxes are a problem, but that is true all over the world, (wild life speading various diseases). Badgers will be next on the wipe out list.
I think its more the fact that a bunch of very rich contry folk have to make a big issue out of chasing one fox to death.
The usual reply is "we very rarely actully catch the fox its the chase thats exciting"
Then in the next breath they say "we provide a valuable service".
You cant have it both ways.

 

They think they can Pete!

 

I've kept out of this one as once drawn in I would explode. No one who has not worked down the mines or in a steel mill has any right to judge or condemn. The truth is that coal is yesterday's energy source no matter how much remains underground. Nuclear power is now our only option with North Sea gas and oil all burnt. Wind farms are no more than a gesture.

In my book - all blood sports are obscene and if countrymen can't have a social life without torturing animals then they are truly pathetic.

Thatcher famously said that "there was no such thing as society" and did her level best to destroy the NHS and the entire public sector. She was an unmitigated disaster. Her successor is Blaire, a true son of Thatcher who is Bush's poodle just as she was Regan's. She sought glory in the Falklands and he looked for his in Iraq. Nothing changes and we get the politicians we deserve.

I do get fed up with people that say Britain is finished. I've heard that winge all my life. Our faults are also our virtues. We are too tolerant and we are the only one to obey the mindless EC regulations. The other side of that coin is that we are genuinly tolerant of others and most of us are law abiding. I'm quite happy for the moaners to flit and will welcome in hard working Poles to replace them! The blood sport creeps can go to various Mediterranean countries where the big macho gunmen even shoot sparrows and swallows to prove their manhood and improve their "social life". GRRRR!

 

Since when were the fox hunts keeping the number so foxes down? Lets face it they only killed a few compared to the many killed on the roads and those that were killed by hunts were soon replaced by other foxes looking for spare territories. Food supply has always been the controlling factor on fox numbers. Foxes maintain a territory and will fight competing foxes over that territory. I have seen hunts creating special earths so that vixens could produce cubs that could then be evicted when it was cubbing time. I have also seen hunters releasing foxes into land where they thought there was not enough sport - they also used to do the same with badgers when it was legal to hunt them. The landscape of North shropshire with small woodlands was partly laid out to provide sport - the woods provided habitat for foxes to breed in and they could then be hunted. Fox hunting is done because they enjoy chasing and killing small furry animals.
The fox is not vermin. It is not recognised as such by the Min of Agriculture. If you find an injured rabbit, grey squirrel and nurse it back to health it is then illegal to release it back into the wild because it is classed as vermin. Not so with a fox. Lots of farmers don't like hunting. i know one who nursed an injured fox cub, another who was a sheep farmer who was a member of the League against Cruel sports and another sheep farmer who would never allow hunters across his land.
Funny how I have never seen all these disease ridden foxes. In fact the ones i Have observed have been a picture of health. Living on your wits nature is a cruel place and those that are disease ridden soon die if they cannot catch their food.
About the miners - I was never a fan of Arthur Scargill but I have had sympathy for the strikers. British coal was not expensive because of high wage demands. It was competing with imported coal from America and Australia in particular. Much of this imported coal was open cast mined which will always be cheaper than deep shaft mined British coal, especially if they do not have to restore the land afterwards like they would in Britain. The miners were striking because the pits were being closed while there were millions of tons of coal still underground and the low price was only temporary. You cannot close a pit and then reopen because flooding and pressure release destroys the mine. Once closed its gone forever. That was the basis of the miner's argument but they were outmanouvred and badly led.
Maggie Thatcher would not have been as successful if she had not been fortunate enough to have North Sea oil exploited during her tenure and that was sold off far too cheaply.

 

Pete, I am so anti-hunting it is unbelievable ... and here in a country where it is your food... oh, maybe not yours and certainly not mine!

I was very active in Toastmasters many years ago and my opening speech was anti-firearms ... I'd actually use them on people before I would an animal!

Hornbeam, you and I have gone this round before. I am very anti shooting and have to put up with it evey Thursday and Sunday morning in "hunting season" which is now and I fear for my cats although shooting is not allowed in orchards.

I don't like it one iota I can assure you. But, at least they eat what they shoot!

[ 03. January 2007, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Lady of Leisure ]

 

Let me add fuel to the fire. I can see the attraction of fox hunting and indeed the reasons for it, though misliking the pack catching and killing the fox as is not often the case.I can also understand why farmers allow the hunt on their lands too.

Probably in the same way that I can understand the attraction of bull fighting in Spain. This last I went to, to ensure I knew what I was talking about.

I can also understand why folk that live in the rural countryside, object strongly to those who don't imposing their will on them.

Don't get me wrong I do not support blood sports, whether it be hunting, shooting or indeed fishing - but I can understand why people enjoy it, and some of the reasons why they occur.

I wonder why the government focussed on hunting, rather than taking on the shooting fraternity, or the angling fraternity. Could it be they felt it was a softer target in respect of public opinion.

 

Re disease ridden foxes it is extremely difficult to diagnose tuberculosis or heart worm or hook worm unless you have the fox for close examination by an expert, grey squirrels cannot be released because they are a non native species as are the coypu some bright spark released in Norfolk. The point is as more consumers wish to purchase animal products which are farmed ethically like free range eggs/chicken etc.. when the hunts were active they would work alongside landowners to either remove the offending fox and pay compensation for any losses due to fox predation,or despatch the fox immediately, now the producer has to cover the losses and this puts pressure on the price of the product which is difficult in a consumer led economy, i am for one minute suggesting that fox hunting with a pack of hounds is the solution, rather that some shortsighted error has been made by stopping hunting without giving any thought to the problems that this would leave behind. It is very easy to say tough luck its up to the producer to look after his/her own livestock well the alternative to free range poultry farming is battery farming which in my opinion is a barbaric and cruel method. If no one is willing to sort out the vermin problem or indeed the real health risk of hook worm transfer across species then it is not worth our while to try and run an ethical sustainable business based on good animal husbandry and compassion for the livestock, the only other alternative is to sell up the land and then more than likely a developer will use the land for more housing creating a whole new set of problems,the tax payer is and has funded many many business interests from the private sector so why not help out small farmers who are encountering real difficulties due to this legislation, it is short sighted to make these kind of changes without looking into the consequences,who among us would rather see small farms go out of business and the land be ready for developers to plunder.?This government is fully against rural communities and small farmers just look at the lunatic son of a bit** who declared that all horses have to have passports at the horse owners expense yet cattle passports cost nothing? why single out one group of people for harsh treatment not all horse owners are super rich hooray henrys,

 

Does the fox harbour more diseases than the dog? Dog pooh is known to cause blindness in children and a pit bull has once again killed a child. When did we last hear of a fox tearing a child's face off? Are we going to exterminate domestic dogs now as well as foxes, badgers and hares in the cause of disease control and public safety masking blood lust?

Blair fudged it and resisted the total ban on blood sports that was required.

 

Hornbeam essentially what you are saying is right if an irresponsible dog owner does not have his/her dog vaccinated then the dog can carry parasites and these can be passed on through the dirty dog muck and if anyone does clean up after their dogs mess they should be fined heavily and have the dog taken off them. As for the tragic events with the young child andd the pit bull type dog, I am appalled and greatly saddened by the tragic story, I can only ask the same question as most right minded people which is what kind of moron wants to have a dog like that? if i remember rightly John Major signed an order to have all these dogs destroyed put then relented?I disagree with people who like to keep the pit bull dogs they are dangerous and have no place in this society, i rather think that they are used by some people as a status symbol!We have badgers who live on our land quite happily and the dairy herd has always tested negative for TB and the badgers are not a problem I haven't heard of hares being killed as a disease measure, hares and rabbits are not classed as vermin although some peole may think so they are classed as ground game, we have had many young lads with dogs ask us for permission to course for rabbits on our land and i have not given permission to any of them and i wouldn't consider giving them permission either. Our livestock and land does not have any detrimental effects from having these animals live there we have roe deer and because of that we have to ensure that our horses are well vaccinated because of the risk of bllod carried parasites being transferred by ticks most commonly sheep ticks. Largely these type of problems have occured because of mankinds infringement on the habitat of these animals and it is largely a self inflicted problem but knowing this doesn't make it any less of a problem does it?

 

Sorry the above should read if anyone does "not"clean up after their dogs mess

 

Wish you hadn't mensioned the hard working Poles, Hornbean.
If I dont reach retirement soon I can see myself and many other construction workers on the dole. They are bringing the wages down, accepting wages that ordinary blokes cant live on, if your based here.
They have already done the same in agriculture I believe.
Its all part of the goverment plan, "we need these people" it keeps the economy looking good, and makes "Good old Gordon" look like a genius.

 

If you use the word vermin then try to understand its meaning. Grey squirrels are classified as vermin not because they are introduced but because they are an agricultural pest. Rabbits are classified as vermin IN LAW. Whether you count them as game is irrelevent. Foxes are not classed as vermin according to the law.
Interesting that you mention badgers and TB cause that is one thing that they always got wrong. If badgers spread TB it would be a very slow spreading disease because badgers are very clannish and don't move out of their territory much. They do catch TB from cattle though, probably because they have a habit of nosing through cow pats. TB is spread through the air and not on badger urine or whatever.
as fox hunts killed such a small number of foxes what problems is their abolition going to cause? Farms where foxes are not controlled do not suffer problems. The red fox is found throughout large parts of the world and people manage without fox hunts such as we had in the UK. Killing a resident fox just leaves a vacant territory that is soon reoccupied. Anyone who states that fox hunting would lead to overpopulation by foxes just does not understand the first thing about wildlife population dynamics. If you are going to state that foxes are disease ridden then the logic is that all wildlife, not just foxes, are disease ridden, so should we wipe out everything?
A lot of country folk are fed up to the back teeth with people persuming that they must support barbaric blood sports. They are an obscenity that has long embarrassed our civilised nation. Badger baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting and bull baiting used to be quite acceptable and legal activities but have now gone into the realms of history which is where fox hunting belongs. Badger baiting was made illegal several years. If I was cynical I would say that was because it was largely a working class activity. Fox hunting which is no less cruel, continued because it was supported by the privileged elite who used their power to block due democratic process. Despite a long held overwhelming repulsion of bloodsports unelected peers blocked legislation, it was talked out. So desperate have the blood sport supporters become that they even tried to say it was an attack on the countryside in general so...the Countryside Alliance...and saying it will be the anglers next etc etc. Fox hunting is done by people who take pleasure from inflicting cruelty on what are wild and very beautiful creatures. I see no difference in moralty between somebody who hunts foxes using dogs and some yob who shoots a swan with an air rifle. No matter how much you dress it up by saying they do a public service etc etc the reasons are the same....enjoyment from another creatures suffering. I don't see why either should take place in a civilised society

 

I agree with the last bit entirely Geoff, there is very little difference between the yob with his pit bull and the hunter and his hounds, probably juat an extra few thousand a year.

Having said that I know of people that go out after dark with a pick up fitted with spot lights, and a couple of blokes standing in the back with shotguns.
They blast anything that gets caught in the lights, and brag about it, and how THEY are providing a service.
Its a **** world, I think I want to get off. :D

 

Geoff i disagree rabbits are classed as ground game which can lead to prosecution of people who are taking them without the land owners permission. As far as saying all wildlife is dosease ridden this could be the case i wouldn't advocate killing any animal just for the sake of killing it but where an animal becomes a pest and an expensive pest action of some description must be taken any one with an ounce of business sense will agree, i state again with the dissolving of hunts there is no longer compensation available to people who lose livestock due to predation by foxes! a fox contrary to romantic beatrix potter beliefs will make entry into a poultry shed and kill every living bird in there, there is no reasoning with it the birds are killed purely for killings sake, this is a fact and a seriously expensive fact because a person or persons agree or disagree with a certain way legislation has been introduced with no thought for after effects does not make it right to suggest that the person supports all manner of cruelty as you seem to be suggesting i dislike dog fighting i find ti abhorrent as is cock fighting bull baiting etc and i take offence at being even veaguely labelled in the same category as these monsters people who don't have their domestic dogs vaccinated are fully to blame for toxicara eggs hatching and blinding people if they come into contact with the faeces adults as well as children can be affected this has nothing at all to do with me all my animals are vaccinated and checked on a regular basis by a qualified vet, if my dogs do mess i clean it up. I stringly condemn any person who keeps viscious dogs especially in a domestic setting. As for the badgers i have a sett ion my land the sett has been there undisturbed for a long time they cause no problems to me or to my livestock or to the neighbouring dairy herd, It is defra who wish to pursue the idea that badgers are somehow connected with TB in dairy cattle i disagree with this notion completely which was my point in my earlier post we have had badgers for years with no adveres effects at all thereby demonstrating categorically that there is no link between badgers and tb in dairy cattle. What i was trying to illustrate is that when the local hunt was in existence many local people who keep poultry had a means of recompense when they lost livestock from predation by foxes, now they hunt is not in existence there is no recompense for these losses which makes it more difficult for producers especially free range producers to remain competitive or worse reamain in business. Personally i would rather see poultry enjoying a free range lifestyle than be stuck 3 to a cage in a stinking battery farm. it is shiort sighted of the government to take this action without putting anything into place to cover the losse that people suffer. The only offer the government has offered to me and to friends of mine is a cash package deal that encourages us to come out of farming all together, probably so that people can continue to buy cheap poultry products farmed in an inhumane way. now wouldn't it be ignorant, offensive and downright arrogant of me to presume that because you geoff have an opinion that differs from mine that you are in full support of intensive inhumane barbaric farming practises???