Agree entirely with Geoff and Pete. I am not a vegetarian and have no qualms about killing animals for food providing they are well cared for when alive and then are killed as humanely as possible. I also recognise that millions of years of evolution have established a basic hunter/gatherer instinct in modern humans which cannot be discarded. Some people satisfy that instinct by angling, shooting and hunting - others go shopping and collect stamps, coins or antiques. Whatever. As a working class lad, I do recognise that part of my hatred for toffs in hunting pink is a reaction to their priviledged lifestyle and all that goes with it. On the other hand, my real venom is for the cruelty of hare coursing, badger baiting and lamping which is done by working class yobs. I also recognise that it is not a town versus country issue either. Cruelty to animals in town and city is and always has been revolting. Cock fighting, bull and bear baiting, dog fights, burning cats in sacks, bird liming etc. These things are all one and the same and cannot be excused by fancy dress, economic neccesity, hunger, social cohesion or anything else. It is sick and the people who engage in these activities should be shamed and gaoled. How people who call themselves dog, horse or pet lovers can participate in blood sports is beyond my understanding. A terrified fox is no different from a terrified dog. A hare torn to pieces by dogs feels pain and terror just as keenly as a cute floppy eared bunny in a hutch would. Doubtless - a returned Tory governmment will repeal the partial hunting ban as well as our recently hard won right to roam - but that's another issue that the landowning gentry and I disagree on.
gd, I do think that your hint that battery hens are the alternative to free range poultry due to foxes not being controlled is a bit thin. Battery hens are surely kept that way for production purposes, it has nothing to do with the fox issue.
Go to the Med particularly Cyprus/ Malta, gd, thousands of small migrants are caught on lime sticks every spring BEFORE they have a chance to breed.
I also fail to understand how you cannot keep foxes out of your poultry shed. I know I'm not really well up on chickens, but are they not locked up at night?
Yes the idea of battery farming is purely for production of eggs two hybrid strains of hen were bred the first right after the war to feed a starving nation, they are called warrens and now the more modern babcock400 strain hens in battery farms can lay twice a day if they are cajoled into it. My point is that the alternative to free range egg/poultry production is intensive farming battery farms etc.. this method is not to keep foxes out but it is for economic reasons alone it is THE alternative method to free range production most free range birds (mine also) enjoy the fresh air and the sunshine and also enjoy a wider range of food than battery hens the eggs are superior in flavour to anything produced in a battery environment.Also free range egg layers live on average 3 times longer than battery hens even if they are the same strain of hybrid. What i am (endlessly) trying to say is that inorder to save my livestock from predation it would probably be more economically viable to move my egg production into a cntrolled environment free from any outside influences, ie foxes, wild birds,weasels stoats sunshine fresh air rain water, in my opinion intensive production in this manner is not an acceptable way to farm animals I would rather keep the hens in a free range environment, i did not at any point state that battery hens are kept in that manner to stop predation from foxes,when poultry is kept in a battery environment fox predation risk is negligible even if the fox could get into the building which is a big if the poultry is sti;; out of reach to the fox because they are in wire cages above the ground level.The statement i made was not at all implying that foxes were the reason for battery farming
Of course only a fool would not lock up the poultry at night foxes can and do regularily bite chew and gnaw their way into timber structures, the structures are timber because they are easily erected without the need for planning applications because they are timber plans for a permanent structure of brick or breeze block are frequently refused due to planning restrictions, foxes can soon make their way into timber buildings and once within the building will usually kill every bird in there, you don't have to be knowledgeable about poultry keeping to know that locking up your hut at night is a sensible idea and i have no sympathry for anyone who neglects to lock up their poultry
See here GD. Thankfully, we in Britain no longer do this and that is why small birds are relatively tame here. Malta and Cyprus are two of the worst places. They also trap migrant birds on their way to Britain. You too can buy bottled song birds, but as LOL says - at least they eat them. Look here and be sickened: http://www.conservation.org.cy/birds.htm http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southeast/series2/bird_trapping_illegal_capture_kent_malta_rspca.shtml
Thanks gd, so you need to keep an eye open all the time for signs of a fox trying to gain entry. Your obviously really working hard at tying to keep your free range poultry going and I really do wish you luck. But it sounds like the odds are stacked against you, foxes, wild birds, weasels and stoats. No mension of bird flu? or is that where the wild birds come in?
All sorts can happen with wild birds, bird flu being the latest one but it never did quite materialise did it? the usual with wid birds is contaminating feed stuff, magpies pinching eggs is another one but if you hang a piece of chain in the pophole (the small hole for hens to get in and out) the chain puts birds off from going into the hut they won't go past the chain but the hens will don't know why? the other is not to feed the hens outside.
I have just looked at the link you sent hornbeam i am disgusted its almost unbelieveable how vile. we have wild birds in some of our stables they make nests from mud with a round hole the horses never bother and the birds aren't bothered by the horses magpies often sit on the back of the horses cattle and sheep pulling out hair when they are in moult, this is okay and is probably a relationship that has gone on since the dawn of time so long as they don't cr*p on the horses back just before they are due to be ridden.
Good digger liming is done to catch small birds they used to do it when I was a a lad to catch small song birds to keep in cages ,sticks were pushed into the ground and a strong adhesive called Dak applied any bird flying across the field and alighting for a rest would stick to the twigs and were then harvested I think they still do it on the continent
This topic has had much information and much opinion which is good for the forum. Thanks pete for your good wishes, It is as you say a matter of being extremely vigilant and checking fences and huts each day whilst foxes are very cunning it is quite easy to spot the signs when a fox has paid a visit even if they don't do any damage. We have loads of rabbits running wild here occasionaly the prove a problem for gardeners but it is relatively easy to erect temporary wire fences around precious crops, again its a straightforward routine to protect crops from woodpigeons. As for bird liming i have learnt much i had not even heard of it until it was mentioned here all of us can gain a valuable insight into things from this debate, I am appaled by this bird limimg it is disgusting to trap a wild animal in this way thankfully it is outlawed in the UK. Whilst i remember there was a mention of someone shooting animals from the comfort of a vehicle, i would recommend that if you see this call the police it is illegal in this country to shoot ANY animal from a vehicle and it has been illegal for a good number of years. Most police forces have a wild life officer especially the rural forces we have had dealings with them re our badgers sett there is now a camera at the sett hidden inside a bird box which the badger group monitor, badger baiting is another sick and cruel evil and i would not agree with anyone who would torment and torture an animal in this way. i will close by thanking all of you for your input it has been a healthy and enlightening debate.
I believe that it is also illegal to shoot an animal with a bow and arrow. Not so in the land of the free where there is now a move afoot to also allow hunting with the atlatl spear thrower. They are not alone of course, Russia, China and just about everywhere still hunt for sport and gain. Just one of the reasons why I choose to live in Britain. We may have our problems but we are comparitivly compassionate and restrained when it comes to animal welfare. If I lived elswhere - I'd soon be in trouble!
