Moving Hellebores

Could not agree more Tim, I know very little about Hellebores but I completely agree about the "experts". They tend to quote what others have said before them, and not from experience, and make a living out of it.
I think there is a lot of Mis-infomation written about many plants.

 

I think Tim has a good point. It is much easier to blame the plant rather than blame ourselves. I am slowly coming round to understanding why some of my plants, which are drought tolerant and need sharp drainage, didn't like being in the sodden area of the garden over winter, even though parts of the plant were above the waterline for days at a time. :confused:

 

I think what it comes down to is understanding as much as poss about whatever plants you're dealing with and acting according to that and common sense. I think we Brits do tend to believe what we're told more than most! So we should stop it, and do what the plants like! We soon know when they need watering, or less water, what temperatures they tolerate, so when it comes to moving them, so long as we minimise the disturbance and shock, and keep them with appropriate levels of moisture, they should be fine. Does that make sense to anyone else???

 

I agree to some extent Dendy, but we have to get our information from somewhere. Fair enough, if experiences (and of course good ol' common sense) tell you that something is wrong, then you don't follow the advice, but for something like this, most people would probably be reluctant to carry out experiments with plants that could result in their death, so they look to the "experts" for advice - incorrect as that may be. Does THAT make sense either?!

 

Yeah that makes sense, its the "experts" that are at fault not the people that follow them.
The times I've read that certain plants wont grow in certain places, all repeated time after time by different books, and in some cases its not true, but its as if no one wants to stand up and contradict them.

 

like the business of rooting cuttings in a jar of water on your window-sill - we all seem to think it's a shameful thing to do!! But we all do it because it works! Yes, Dave it makes sense!! I think that it's best to ask or find out why things are done in a certain way. If there's a good reason, fair enough - but if there isn't that's when you try other ways. That's just my opinion, of course! :rolleyes:

 

You make a fair point, Dave. We do have to get our information from somewhere, and a particular book or magazine has to be the starting point I suppose. We follow the advice (why wouldn't we?) until like Waco wrote, we are forced to do something the books/magazines/experts say we probably shouldn't do, like moving hellebores when they shouldn't be moved. And as if by magic, there is no problem - the plants are just fine! This is no surprise to me, in fact I am surprised when growers tell me that they HAVE lost hybrid hellebores after moving/dividing them.

One of the (many) reasons I got into hellebores as deeply as I am now is because back when I first started out, there was very little written about them, and what was written was mostly contradictory and a load of old rubbish.

It's only when you really know about something that you realise how much rubbish has been written by non-experts. It's extremely frustrating for me as a hellebore specialist to see a comment such as " I had this one hellebore which I wanted to move, so I lifted it, moved it, and a few months later it died" carry so much weight. That person will, for the rest of their life probably believe that hellebores resent disturbance and cannot be moved. Such a judgement cannot be made after trying with only one plant! Or two or three or four, or....

People like me could tell that person until blue in the face that it is OK to move hellebores around, but they wouldn't believe it. Because of course, they didn't do anything wrong, it was the plants fault for dying...

 

Me I use books as general indicators only - and then try things. So much depends on particular soil/micro climate and other things. But they can be handy indicators and are usually based on some experience.

So if the RHS says a plant is frost tender - I will take care then push the boundaries to see just how tender for me, where I am and in my soil etc.

 

Fran, isn't it surprising how many extra things you can grow just by pushing those boundaries?

Hardiness ratings are about more than how cold a temperature a plant will survive. Others conditions such as soil type, drainage, aspect, etc. all play a part.

Cyclamen species (my other obsession) are currently being re-discovered as plants for the open garden. Not that long ago all you would see outside was Cyclamen coum and Cyclamen hederifolium. Now, it's generally accepted that most species can be grown outside. There is only one which probably wouldn't survive in most areas on the UK.

I don't think it's so much to do with the climate becoming warmer, but more to do with gardeners learning that amending the soil to aid drainage, planting slightly tender plants where they will be sheltered by shrubs, rock, etc., all help push the hardiness boundary.

For those of you who are familiar with cyclamen, I have friend in the US who grows and flowers Cyclamemn graecum.... outside! It took the building of a bed which would cater for its needs (and the needs of other so-called tender plants), but it is possible. It wasn't so long ago that C. graecum wasn't thought to be hardy here in the UK.

 

I agree with you Tim about conditions, but when you have a fairly large garden and a limit on time, it is much more productive to work with nature than against, however my south facing bed against house wall sheltered by box hedge is a great experimental place or hardiness in my garden. My coum and neaopoitana grow like weeds in the right place, but I know of many who have failed with them.

Any tips on a different type of "hardy" cyclamen to try welcome - even in my damp hole of a garden!

 

I stand by what I said originally. In my experience hellebores do dislike moving at the wrong time of year. BUT I did not say it was impossible. I have done it, bare rooted, all soil washed off, wrapped in damp newspaper, driven to the other end of the country, bunged in a dark shed for a week and then planted out. they still survive to this day. However, I would not recommend that treatment to a beginning gardener. The 'experts' I read before answering were Elizabeth Strangman, Martin Rix and I hardly think they are hack reporters of other peoples mistakes.
As for Cyclamen outdoors, There are two which do not easily grow outside in Britain. C.graecum I kept alive for a long time in sea level Cheshire. But the older varieties of C. persicum never survived. Hopefully hybrids with the hardier one found at high levels in Lebanon may do. I'll bet C. libanoticum is hard to acomodate outside too. As for the Cyclamen from Somalia, if it is ever available, I wonder if that would be hardy?

[ 07. April 2006, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Palustris ]

 

I had forgotten to add in my post this morning that the grower of C. graecum in the US gardens in Michigan.

Palustris, I don't know if you have got the wrong end of the stick here... nobody, or at least not me, is having a go at what you've said. All we can do on a site like this is post our experiences. Our experiences are obviously different - I lift and divide hellebores throughout the year and it seems to make no difference as long as they get the care they need. Pressures on my time dictate when I do such work unfortunately. I find it's not the plants that dislike being lifted and divided in mid summer, but me. I have to spend more time watering them and keeping a close eye on them.

C. graecum grows and flowers on the rock garden at RHS Wisley, and I have done the same in cold Cambridgeshire. There are certainly forms of C. persicum which are OK outside in the UK. Peter Moore at Tile Barn has plants which grow well and flower outside. C. rohlfsianum is the one species I wouldn't bother with outside here. Everything else I would experiment with.

I would think that there are more than two species which are difficult outside in the UK, it all depends on how much effort the grower is prepared to put it to grow them. My friend in Michigan built a bed especially for C. graecum and other slightly tender things and it paid off. Dump a tuber of C. graecum in a wet, sticky border in Cambridgeshire and it won't last long! I have grown it tight up against a house wall in full sun and my plants flowered annually.

C. libanoticum isn't plain sailing, but it's do-able. I grew it outside at our previous house in a sheltered spot underneath a dogwood, where the plants were out of the wind. They never looked pristine, but they were healthy enough.

As for C. somalense... currently the holy grail of the cyclamen world, Palustris! Only two tubers in cultivation, both in Sweden, where they have never set seed. It does grow at altitude I think, so it might be OK in the UK as long as it doesn't get too wet in the summer. Not that either of us will have to worry about the cultural requirements of C. somalense for a few years...

Waco, you could try C. cilicium, C. alpinum (formerly C. trochopteranthum), C. pseudibericum, C. purpurascens (this is very hardy, but fussy - consider it the Helleborus niger of the cyclamen world). Give any of these good drainage and a spot out of full sun and they should do OK for you.