It's like the Cockney kid evacuated during the war, billeted on a farm and was watching the landgirl milking a cow. He said "Wot you doing, Miss" she told him she was milking the cow. He said "Coo, we don't get our milk from dirty old cows, we get it in nice clean bottles".
Hi Larkshall, yes funny but true!! But it does prove that we're just repeating history, kids then and now are still ignorant because the educational system hasn't never been geared to make kids worldly and aware of the how the way food is produced. The cuts that are being imposed means that that isn't going to change.
The thing is though, while I don't agree with cuts in education, I can't help but think the schools/eduction system gets the blame for a lot of things. The way I see it, school hours are short, leaving plenty of time for extra-curricular activity. It's outside of school where most learning goes on, and I think that's how it ought to be. You learn by doing. Schooling is still very important because it provides an opportunity to cover subjects that don't typically come up every day, or that your parents and/or peers might not be able to help with, and that may not seem relevant or important at the time (for example, I remember wondering why I would ever need to know that the specific heat capacity of water is 4200). I think if they education system fails for any one single reason, it is that kids aren't stimulated to figure stuff out for themselves. They get force fed facts which they must then regurgitate in an exam, and it is made mindnumbingly boring for them. If they are made to think from an early age that learning is dull, then they just won't bother, and we see that nowadays with groups of teenagers that can barely form a sentence between them. I think this is why the education system fails to prevent us from making past mistakes. I remember when I was a kid, listening to my grandad describing some of his experiences of the war. The school version went something like this: An evil worm in Germany led an army into Poland, the Great Brits were having none of it, we gave the Germans a kicking, and all was well. My grandad's version was somewhat more graphic, less glorious, and at the very least made me realise the importance of never, ever, allowing the same thing to happen again.
Hi Clueless 1, what you say is true and makes a lot of sense. I wasn't trying to make the education system, past or present, the whipping post or "fall guy". You are right that kids at school need inspiring but unfortunately inspiring teachers were in short supply in my time, and from talking to my daughters and grandchildren I get the idea that the situation hasn't changed. I was lucky in that I had one or two teachers that could make a subject seem to be in Technicolor and Vistavision and had a way with words that just sent your imagination flying. There is a need to get the kids out of the school to show them things - and not just when they're coming towards the end of their schooling to become factory fodder. I agree that "doing things" is the way on how to learn things - but those things would be of real life, how to mature and how to get the self-confidence to "get on in life", and school will never teach that. I spent 2 long years as an Apprentice in the RAF training to be a Air Radar Fitter banging my head on subjects of electronics, physics, higher maths etc. At the end of the 2 years I passed all the exams successfully and was over the moon until at the Parade to mark the end of the training a kindly, godlike, hard nosed Drill Instructor walking down the line of Apprentices stopped and patting me on the shoulder said "forget everything you've just learned over the past 2 years!! Your in the man's Air Force now and this is when you starting learning!". He was right, because things weren't done the way I was trained!!! I had to relearn from doing things the way it was done from hard experience. The schools are too rigid and uninspired as you say. But surely some of the responsibility lies on the families to make kids more confident, enquiring and worldly without making them "hard".
Armandii, very well put. I agree with everything you just said. I chose a different career path, I'm a software developer (computer programmer) with quite a lot of years experience now. A couple of months ago we got a young junior joined us, fresh out of university. She is on my project team, and very talented and enthusiastic, which is great, but quite a few times I've had to tell her straight that as much as the stuff she learn't at uni is very important, in the real world we just don't have time to write 200 page reports before we actually start work. Going back a bit, to my time at uni, I remember the shock horror when when of our lecturers set us an assignment to design a technical solution to something, when we hadn't covered that topic yet. He could see the disapproval on our faces, and turned to the class and said "If we'd covered the topic, you'd all go away and simply regurgitate the work of others so that you could get your pass for the module. By not teaching you it, you'll have no option but to go and figure out for yourself and then you might actually learn something or better still, you might create something brand new". He was right. We all tackled the problem with genuine enthusiasm, as opposed to putting in a couple of hours on the morning of the deadline and just writing about what others had done.
Well, we've advanced the subject a bit! New young raw members of staff are usually handicapped by being in awe of their more experienced peers, while some are still full of the ego derived from attaining their degree! Sometimes it takes a firm pull of the reins to remind the newby that theory has nothing on experience. I've been a manager in several firms and one of them was a troubleshooter in a global advertising firm [of which I've still got fond memories because they were all absolutely bonkers but professional at the time]. My point is that during that time I came across inexperienced, unworldly staff who needed a discrete nudge in the right direction because you could see they had potential. Those with inflated ego's were usually brought to earth by someone in their department who wouldn't stand for the situation - the result being the ego was either deflated or left the firm! I learnt again when, getting my first posting after my apprenticeship, I stood in my clean new fitters overalls before a huge 1800 mph plus, supersonic in the climb, shiny Lightning fighter that I really didn't know much at all and that if I cocked up it was possible someone could get killed. I think that kind of killed any ego or bravado I had!! Luckily for me the squadron members were patient and had been through what I was going through at that time so I had a gentle introduction to the real world. Which is why possibly I've tried to encourage those that needed it and brought up short those who ego's were affecting their work and that of others. I guess we all learn from our, and others, mistakes - and I'm still learning!!
Sometimes, the elderly say: "when we were worse off then we were better off"... Or: "There are no more middle seasons", "things are not as they used to be", "we have no autumn and spring anymore". I read the first post, when it says about the water from the well. If you go 200 miles north-east from Moscow, that's the picture even nowadays. Over there, time seems to have stopped in the 30s, 40s, at most 50s. Women wear headscarfes like they were "Matrioshka dolls", the atmosphere all around is bleak, desolate. No noises. Silence everywhere. The only noise is the whisper of the branches of the birch trees moved by the wind. Cars are just a few. In a crowdy minibus bound to the nearby town "Ivanovo", all the passangers keep silence. None talks. You can see motorcycles with sidecar moving in the streets as it used to be in western Europe - say - in the 40s. If you are thirsty, you can drink from the drinking fountain. But you have to pump the water from below if you want the water to raise and spring out of the drinking fountain. As it used to be - in western Europe - say - 60, 70 years ago...
I was talking to a lady the other day who was going to university to do a degree in Occupational Therapy. Hmmmm. Why do you need to spend three years pfaffing around at uni, running up piles of debt, for something like that? Why is learning on the job as an apprentice always considered an inferior way of learning? Personally, I think it's often the only meaningful way of accquiring a practical skill. My husband is having great difficulty recruiting IT professionals who can actually design things and problem solve. Recently a recruitment agency rang him and asked what sort of people he was looking for. Would he, the rep asked, only consider people with a first class degree? No, said OH. He would only consider people who could actually do the job. The best programmer in the office, he said, was a guy with no qualifications who had dropped out of school early and lost several years of his life to various illegal substances. When it came to designing software, however, he could wipe the floor with most of the kids with pretty qualifications.
The simple answer is that universities are commercial organisations, and like all other commercial entities, they are profit driven. There are also many other businesses built around university life. When you first go in for 'fresher's day' you get inundated with marketing materials from all manner of travel companies, banks. insurance firms, providers of safety and security gadgets etc etc. The sad truth is that students are just a big source of income for a lot of organisations, and of course they have to pay tax on everything they buy, just like the rest of us, and the businesses have to pay tax on their profits, which equates to a lot of revenue for the government. You put all that together, and then it becomes immediately apparent why for the last few years the youth have been brainwashed into believing that they are inferior if they don't go to university. It is exactly the same principle as when it was still legal to advertise tobacco products on TV. I remember how you were not cool unless you chain smoked a particular brand. I have absolutely nothing against the idea of universities, and if people feel they would genuinely benefit from winning a degree, then good luck to them, but for most I fear they are doing it for the wrong reasons just because they've been brainwashed to feel that they have to. And my final thought on this specific point: Why are we all made to feel that we need to be in some highly skilled profession these days? Some people look down their noses as 'mere labourers' or shop workers. That needs to change too. Apart from the fact that someone has to do the 'menial' jobs (the jobs that most of us don't have the skills to do), what is about such jobs that is so menial? I was one of those that fell for the brainwashing and built a professional career as a software developer (although I only went to uni part time while I was doing the job as a trainee). I now have to drive 70 miles round trip for work because you can't pick and choose your work location when the work is in pockets in the cities). Most of my mates do 'menial' jobs, and they drive better cars than me, have more spare time, and have more money in their pockets. If someone chooses to work in the local shop and earn just enough to provide for their family while always being close at hand, surely that's better than someone earning a bit more but spending the extra on fuel, and always being miles away from home.
Claralou, your husband has got it spot on and obviously has a clear mind and a grip of how to manage a business. I've hired and [unfortunately] fired in my time as a Senior Manager. A person who turns up at a job interview armed with a fistful of degrees and no experience is not the automatic successful candidate. I hired some people who didn't have the qualifications but had that spark of curiosity, creativeness and courage to approach things from an unconventional angle that showed potential. I've seen people with degrees and no practical experience put into a job of responsibility over staff who were more experienced and talented. The consequences of that is very predictable. Immature, naive and some ego filled decisions are taken by that person resulting in loss of morale, lack of customer satisfaction, loss of contracts and also loss of fantastic staff. I'm not undermining the value of a degree or the hard work that it takes to achieve it. But a degree doesn't give that person the vital practical experience in whatever field of business they're in. I've worked closely with advertising and IT people over the years and found that they need to be creative, unconventional, and in some cases slightly insane! And I've got to say I loved working with them. An apprentice in "my day" had a different status where we didn't work on the job but we're taught electronics, physics, and given a further schooling in A level Maths, English, and Science beyond what the state had given us. Apprentice today can be interpreted and distorted in a different thing. I've seen firms where an "apprentice" was merely cheap labour and a convenience where the "turn-over" was high. Apprentice is a good thing is done properly but you have to ensure that training on the job is beneficial to both employer and apprentice. [hr] Hi Maksim, Your description is very poetical and description and points out that there are many places in the world where they are well behind technically, politically, and perhaps restricted by the culture although the latter can sometimes be a good thing. If the desire, will, and far-sightedness is there in that area then it grow until it overcomes the inertia holding it back. As you say, you have to take the effort to pump the water out of the ground before you can drink from the fountain.
Degree's aren't everything. My granddaughter went to Exeter University and got a degree, she admitted to my wife and I that it wasn't worth much, you need a "Master's degree" to have any influence. My grandson (her cousin) didn't go to University and went to work as a Chef in a local restaurant, did his training and after working at two other restaurants now has a fairly good position at another local "up-market restaurant" with a good salary. The granddaughter works for an MP for poor salary and is expected to supply and run a car for no extra.
One of my mates chose to turn his hand to computer programming like me. He got into it a bit later than me so decided to go through academia to catch up. My highest academic qualification is an HNC that I got from part time uni while I was a trainee. My mate has a Master's degree. I have 16 years commercial experience from a range of different environments, he has about 5 years experience. Lucky for me, I have little trouble finding work when a job comes to an end, my mate with the Master's really struggles to find work. I don't think its anything to do with skill, its about the way we approach a job. My mate is still undoing the effects of 6 years of academia, so he still tackles things the academic way. I on the other hand tackle the job by asking myself the question, 'what is the quickest and cheapest but most robust way to do this, and what might go wrong and how will I mitigate against that?'. That way I get the job done quickly and produce a rock solid result, where my mate would take longer and build a system that works fine as long as nobody comes along and changes the requirements (in which case the whole thing falls apart).
I think that there are areas in the commercial world where a degree is valued and can get you into a good job, particularly in the financial sector. I do not have a high regard for "bean counters" as in chasing the bottom line they can actually stifle creativity and hold back on the ground decisions. But that's an aside! Degrees have become less regarded because due to the recession resulting in a greater number of degree holders than there are jobs and that won't change for a few years yet. MPs are renown for paying poor wages, unless of course it's a family member! There's still a misconception that working for people of "status" is a privilege and honour and your granddaughter is probably being paid out of his expenses!! [hr] I agree with you,Clueless, on all of the realistic points you make. Who decides what a menial job is? I have never considered any job menial or beneath me. In civilian life I've always been a manager but I've learnt from many a wiser person than me doing "menial job". Does "menial" mean a less intellectual or intelligent job, I don't think so. We all have a inborn desire for status and betterment which results on jobs being viewed as less important than others. I have sat in a Greenhouse in the morning, before going to my office,with the firm's veteran gardeners looking after the needs of the staff, the estate, and been amazed at their worldliness and pride in doing what they did. I can honestly say that in idle conversation with those good people they quite unwittingly supplied me with answers to problems I had been presented with!!! All jobs are interlinked and we all rely on each other to some degree. Is the fact that you are a manager or computer software developer, MP, Nurse or plumber mean you're more important than someone in a shop or factory - I don't think so! There's a difference being having respect for a person or job and a kind of subservient awe of a "status" job. Me?, I've always enjoyed the challenge of solving problems, helping people and the developing a business hopefully getting the respect of people not because I was in a "status" job but because of what I done. The status I most revered was whether or not I was enjoying the job I was doing and whether or not it was worthwhile in my mind.
Qualifications are not everything. As a young lad I was a bit of a tearaway! I hated my stepfather with a passion you can only dream of, so when I had had enough of him knocking me about for no reason, I retaliated and beat seven shades of **** out of him. Result? He had me arrested when he woke up inhospital and I got sent down. I did 32 months. The judge told me that I should join the forces when I was released. I had to get a job and keep it for a year when I got out. Only thing I could get was working in a poultry slaughter house. The most disgusting job you can imagine. However, I worked very hard for that year. Never late, no sickies, kept my head down and my gob shut. When I applied to join the army I had a glowing reference from my employers. That reference got me into the army. I wanted to go in as a mechanic in the REME, but they had no vacancies. I was going to forgetabout joining until the instructor said "Hang on, we know you are very fit as you run and swim for the county, we think you will be over 6 feet tall because all your brothers are, we want you to join the Guards". I had no idea what they were until I was shown a film about the Household Cavalry and then sent to each of the three different arms of the regiment. I spent a week with each, was paid as a soldier and didn't have to have my hair cut until I actually joined up. Within a day of being at Knightsbridge with the horses I just knew that was what I wanted to do. I signed up for nine years. Slight hitch in basic training. They found out that I could shoot really well. I didn't know myself until they issued me an SLR. So instead of going straight to Knightsbridge after basic training, I was sent on a sniper course. I qualified A1 at Bisley. One of the youngest to ever do it. I had brass cross rifles when I eentually went to Knightsbridge. I did ceremonial duties for a while before I was detailed for active service in Northern Ireland. I have the Exemplary Military Record to prove I was a good sniper and a good soldier. I got my Para wings at Brize Norton and Aldershot and went back for ceremonial duties as an R&R posting after operational duties. Loved every second of it. Until I broke my neck in a night time HALO drop that went a tad wrong. 17 months in various hospitals and a medical discharge. I went from nearly 18 stone of super fit soldier to just over 7 stone weakling and could barely walk. No job, nowhere to live, not entitled to any benefits, not entitled to put my name on any council house waiting list. My matesin the regiment had a whip round and got in touch with SSAFA and the regimental welfare officer. They found me a ground floor flat and paid the first six months rent. Then the agony of learning to walk again. I told the civvies where they could stick thier benefits and housing. I was collected each day to go to the gym. I had been told by civvies that I would never be able to run again and given a list of thngs I should not do. So I went about doing everything on that list and a bit more besides. Including free fall skydiving, rugby, cross country running, horse riding, boxing, martial arts, Top Fuel Motorcycle Drag Racing, motorcycle stunts, been a bodyguard for numerous celebrities and ran a team of doormen until I retired after getting blown up in a race car. (After two bomb blasts, numerous fights, few crashes and the race car incident I have more than enough scars). I started selling cars for a used car dealer. Then went on to work for Renault UK, Nissan UK and Rover. I found out about selling finance and leasing. Applied for a training course through Renault and passed. At one point I was employed as a Finance Business Manager in big London showrooms, buying, selling and exporting prestige cars myself and running a team of doormen. Earnt loads of money. After getting blown up inthe race car I used the time off sock to study for O levels. Something to do while I couldn't use my hands. I had just had another operation on my left arm. They had replaced some of the metal. Two days after surgery I applied for a job with Renault London as a sales executive. The stitches burst during the interview and there was a pool of blood on the desk and floor. I said nothing about it until I was asked if I had any questions. I asked "When would you like me to start? Right now or would Monday morning suit you better"? The woman personel manager then saw the blood and nearly fainted. Mad panic to get the first aider. She then asked me why I didn't say anything about my arm. I told her that I wanted the job. I started on the Monday. No qualifications to show potential employers. What I did have was a proven track record of what I could do. The army had taught me to adapt, improvise and overcome obstacles and objections. They taught me to never back down from anything. So now I make adult fetish gear for a living. I work for myself and work the hours I want to work. I earn enough to pay my own way without claiming anything from the government that has repeatedly lied to me and stabbed me in the back many times. I hate what this country has become. It is not the country I was once so proud to have served. I see the younger generation and feel great sadness for them. They expect and demand rights that were won by the blood and guts of people thay have never met. They demand respect without any real concept of what it takes to earn it. Old fashioned morals, principals, codes of behaviour, honour, loyalty, consideration, pride, duty, integrity, service have all gone out the window. There is always someobody else to blame, somebody to sue for compensation, a free ride. No clue about rights having responsibilities attached. It is all me me me, now now now. My pet theory is that there are now far too many people in this country. Far too many taking out of the pot and too few putting anything into it.People keep breeding with no thought about how they will provide for their off spring for the next twenty plus years. Nothing is ever learnt form history except new ways to make the same mistakes, call it something else and balme somebody else for it. Chopper.
