A New Compost (Biochar / Grochar)

Discussion in 'Compost, Fertilisers & Recycling' started by *dim*, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. ARMANDII

    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm obviously not well informed as the name Linda Chalker Scott means nothing to me, but then I don't follow the media celebrity side of gardening, rather be ambling around the garden.:snork:
     
  2. *dim*

    *dim* Head Gardener

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    oops .... thought you are anti trying new stuff because I thought that you read her blogs and believe evertyhing she says

    :cool:
     
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    • Kristen

      Kristen Under gardener

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      Nah, she's not a celeb (well, she may be a gardening celeb, but its no surprise to me you've not heard of her)

      I've been reading her book (called "The Informed Gardener", or something like that). It sets out to debunk a number of practices that have been commonplace for-ever in gardeners folklore.

      You should not put drainage in the bottom of containers - water flow is impeded when the substrate types change

      You should remove all soil for plants (trees and shrubs, not annuals in modules!) before planting, and you should not "improve" the soil with compost / sand / etc

      The Myth of Compost Tea (that's probably the one that send Dim off-on-one!)

      Staking newly planted trees is a bad idea

      and so on ...

      She's a PhD from a respected .EDU and I dare say has some knowledge that would be valuable to us.

      But whilst I have picked up some interesting insights from reading her book, and her writings on the Internet, they just raise more questions than they answer in my mind.

      Most of her book is available (e.g. in "articles") on the web, I'll see if I can find a link
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        Naaah, never heard of her, Kristen/dim, and I'm not a follower of blogs. I'm definitely not anti-new stuff. My garage is full of gadgets etc, but I am against the fervour of where a new "super duper" product comes on the market complete with fanfare, scientific data that has no real value, and is seized upon by the gullible and those in search of a "cause".

        I know my garden soil is in good health, Why??? Because when I first started in this garden there wasn't a worm to be seen. Now if you stick a trowel, spade or fork in the borders there are hundreds of them:snork:
         
      • Kristen

        Kristen Under gardener

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        :goodpost:

        :goodpost:

        I don't see them as a competitor forum Dim, as you say very interesting stuff, but its not as though GC talks about growing weed in your loft! ... you'd get locked up for doing what they do, but not for posting a link to their site on this one :blue thumb:
         
      • Kristen

        Kristen Under gardener

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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        Just write a thousands lines of "Gardeners Corner is the best, Gardeners Corner is the best", dim:lunapic 130165696578242 5: No, we only worry about unauthorised commercial links by the uninformed or spammers.:coffee:

        Linda bla de bla seems to be a confrontationalist trying to be in the public eye...............again I don't follow so called gurus:snork:
         
      • Craig Sams

        Craig Sams Apprentice Gardener

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        I'm at [email protected]
         
      • Kristen

        Kristen Under gardener

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        She's a professor of horticulture from a pucker university. I wouldn't have described her as trying to be in the public eye, and I ain't asking you to follow her, but I'd appreciate your view on one of her myth busting articles (pick one that you have always done and see what you think of why she tells you its wrong)

        Add a handful of bone meal to planting holes before installing shrubs and trees
        http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Bonemeal.pdf

        Newly planted trees should be staked firmly and securely
        http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Staking.pdf

        You shouldn’t disturb the rootball when transplanting trees and shrub
        http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Fragile roots.pdf

        Watering plants on a hot sunny day will scorch their leaves
        http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Leaf scorch.pdf
         
      • Craig Sams

        Craig Sams Apprentice Gardener

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        Your Grandad's 'ash mountain' is mostly Potassium. Biochar is Carbon. Potash is a potassium fertiliser that makes hydrangeas a better blue colour and increases fruit levels on currants. Biochar changes the soil structure to make all its components work better for plant growth, carbon puts a framework in place for long term soil structure improvement. But you are right that 'horticultural charcoal' as it used to be called, was used in Britain long ago. Groundskeepers once used it to toughen up cricket pitches, tennis courts and football fields. The biochar increased the reach of the grass roots, helping grass stay strong in the face of repeatedly having its tips mowed off. Once chemical fertilisers came in, biochar fell by the wayside.

        Potash/potassium is made by burning wood and giving off the carbon in it as carbon dioxide. Biochar is made by starting the wood on fire, then cutting off the air supply. The wood can't burn without oxygen but it's too hot to stop, so it goes into 'pyrolysis' mode and reduces to almost pure carbon.

        I suppose the difference between 'horticultural charcoal' and 'biochar' is that we know a lot more about soil organisms like mycorrhizal fungi and understand how biochar increases their population. So we can add the mycorrhizae to the biochar to make sure it kicks off straight away
         
      • Kristen

        Kristen Under gardener

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        Mostly calcium, no?

        although wood ash will raise the pH (having the opposite effect). I know you said "Potash" rather than "ash mountain", but as the two were mentioned close together I didn't want anyone to confuse the two. Wood ash contains Potash, but actually relatively little as the majority of ash is Calcium, so whilst it provides a useful source of Potash it also acts like Lime to make pH more Alkaline - don't use on Blueberries!
         
      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        I've, also, never heard of Linda whatshername and don't take much (but do take a little) notice of new fangled ideas.

        We've been working this garden for 40 years and it started off as a couple of inches of topsoil on thick, solid yellow clay. The jungle we moved into consisted mainly of very deep-rooted trees, shrubs and brambles with an undergrowth of very shallow rooted weeds. After spending a few years gradually clearing the jungle we found that growing 'normal' garden plants and veg didn't do much good until we were able to "improve" the soil. This was done by using the gardeners' folklore of digging in straw (helps keep the clay broken up), compost and manure. We were then able to grow some very rewarding plants.

        Since then we continually dig in, or spread, compost (which produces itself when we dump garden waste in a pile :)) and have no trouble growing things. There may be ways of growing things faster and bigger but I tend to find that during the growing season mother nature seems to catch up fairly well. Most of my information is from empirical data gathered from using various methods derived from 'folklore'.

        Of course, as I don't grow things on a commercial scale, and it's not grown for profit, the main criteria is whether I can get a successful result at minimal cost. I'm always open to ideas that will help my newly propagated plants get a good head start but cost has to be an important factor.

        I fully understand that with you, dim, it's necessary to show to your clients that you get good results, so it's important for you to find ways to ensure that. For me, if something doesn't do well (very rare) I just bung in another one that I've propagated (actually it's Mrs Shiney that does that :heehee:).

        Kristen, if I had read the book and come across the bit about not putting drainage in containers, I would have immediately wanted to disbelieve everything else in the book. This is certainly something we have empirical proof of. Ignoring annual plants in baskets etc, we have many years of results trying different ways. The most successful still seems to be to put broken crocks in the bottom of the containers. It's also a way of recycling the broken crocks :thumbsup:. I've also got great respect for old crocks since I've become one :old:

        If this new compost helps get plants growing better it can be of use in the right place but cost effectiveness needs to be taken into account. Just getting my runnerbeans ready to go out two weeks earlier wouldn't be sufficient unless they would continue to provide a better crop for a longer period. Even a bigger crop isn't much of a criteria as I need only plant more at, almost, minimal cost to equal it.

        So, I'm happy to try things but they need to improve on what I've found that over 50 years of experience and trying numerous methods has achieved.
         
      • Kristen

        Kristen Under gardener

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        Its specifically the gardeners' folklore that Linda whatshername debunks. Gardeners' folklore existed long before science was the fine art that it has become. I'm slow to change, like you, but wide open to science demonstrating to me that something could be done better. I need quality science, including peer reviewed proof, rather than just a rant though! and as you know I don't read the tabloids, so the stuff they peddle won't even get onto my radar.

        Well ... that fact has been known, and scientifically proven, for over a century. Few gardeners know about it though, so its not just Prof Linda W.H.N.'s rant.

        (We may not be talking quite the same sort of thing, so possibly we are on different wavelengths. I'm talking about an inch of gravel in the bottom of a container, and my understanding is that it refers to crocks in a clay pot too, although I do have some serious questions that I have not seen answered - e.g. if you only have one hole in the pot does it need some help [crocks], i.e. does the "moisture transition to a different density substrate" issue have less significance than "there's only one hole for the moisture to exit through")

        It would be for me, they only take a couple of weeks from sowing to planting out anyway - saving two weeks would be a miracle!
         
      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        I don't plant beans out that early because of wildlife. Apart from the slugs that like very young bean plants the pheasants seem to like them young as well, but they leave the bigger ones alone (empirical data :blue thumb:).

        Most of our pots are one-holed so need the crocks - but from what you're saying she may not be refering to this.

        The other four things you have posted I already agree with but not necessarily for scientific reasons.
        Tree staking - I only do it with low stakes and not for long (except when the tree is in a situation that causes it to lean the wrong way, such as our Freemontedendron).
        Bone meal - only ever used it whilst we were using up what was left in the shed when we arrived here and never really seemed to notice any difference.
        Rootballs - we always tease out the roots on trees and shrubs. Thought that was standard practice.
        Watering - we always water when the plant needs it.

        In my 50 years of gardening the most useful item of folklore, that I can remember, is to dig in straw to help keep clay broken up. It worked brilliantly for us. We just collected it from the field behind us before they burnt it :dbgrtmb:

        I was never so sure about the piece of folklore that said you can keep a cold away by wearing smelly old socks round your neck whilst working in a cold wind! :hate-shocked:
         
      • Kristen

        Kristen Under gardener

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        She advocated pruning the roots and removing ALL the soil/compost ... (with caveats).

        This is a different one, that watering in sun will scortch the leaves. The Telegraph (I think) printed an article last year that questioned a number of things, like this one. I have plenty of personal evidence that water on leaves on plants in the greenhouse scorches them, dunno about outside ... but ... again ... I'd like to ask the question whether she is only referring to outside, or in the greenhouse too.
         
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