Unfortunatly this peoples make look all muslim bad peoples , I don`t understand the hate for this country who gave them more them their own country ... they got police protection , free school , free home , they are allowed to build them mosques , they got benifit e allowed to get around dressed as they want , a house an equal opportunety .... Why do you hate this country ,
Pete, I do not wish to get into a deep discussion on this issue, mainly because I do not see anything positive coming out of this thread, let alone bandying words for the sake of it. I have already stated that I will "agree to disagree". However, you have raised a pertinent point. So, let us go back to the video and understand the "why's" of that particular protest. The protesters believed they had a genuine grievance against the British authorities over it's handling of the arrest of Mona Thorny, the wife of a Stockholm suicide bomber. In this country, (where they reside) there is a right to hold a peaceful protest and express 'freedom of speech'; which they did! It was peaceful (according to the video) and they were free to speak their views. You share that same right. You too can express your views, within the confines of the law, as they did. That particular protest has a specific origin, based on the particulars of that case. They expressed their outrage, disgust and unhappiness about it. In doing so, they also expressed where they stand when it comes to religious law vs. common, constitutional and legislative law. These are not the only group of people who will put their religious teachings above and beyond legislative law: for example, Jehovah Witnesses will put their religious laws above and beyond legislative law; nor are they alone, nor are they less fervent. Now, let's go back: "persecuted people"? Isn't that a matter of perspective? Do you think it possible, that these people are feeling "persecuted"? You may not think so; but could *they* think so? Hitler didn't perceive the Jews that way; the Jews (and others) did And that is the whole point: it is a question of perception. It can make, or break, cultural differences.
I can't be asked to see who "disagreed" with my comments; it would be nice to know which part though You disagree my thoughts should be with the grieving families? The witnesses? The professionals? You disagree that we should be wary of tarnishing people with the same brush? You disagree that I have met Muslims who are not of the same persuasion? You disagree that I hold FC in high regard? You disagree the original post was vague? You disagree that calling a post "horrifying" has the potential to insinuate it will be offensive on some level? Interesting!
OK Mum, if you go and live in someone else's country, condemn their way of living, while at the same time trying to change that country to your own ends. Accept the NHS, pensions and in some cases protection that that country offers you, dont you think they should expect to put the backs up of the population who have paid all their dues by such action. Are we expected to welcome such people to this country? If we are, then maybe its time we all, abandoned this country and left it to its fate. My only worry would be where I could go.
I disagree with you regarding tarring everyone with the same brush, as you clearly believe we are doing.
Mum - apologies for the vagueness in the first post, I am truly aware that this is a highly delicate and emotive subject, and had as somewhat poor attempt at posting it with the genuine intention of stimulating discussion, without it being bias or aggravating in any way. To go some way to addressing some of your points, I agree that the individuals concerned felt they had a legitimate grievance, and they of course were right to air that grievance in terms of a public protest; equally, I agree that it would be very, very wrong to tar all people from that (or any other) culture with the same brush - not my intention, and something I would openly abhor. However, I do feel that there needs to be a deal of equality applied. If I were to walk down the street condemning their culture, religion or country, I would (quite rightly) be arrested for racial hatred or similar; why then, are those individuals that do the very same but in the opposite direction not arrested and dealt with in the same way? I am very much a live and let live sort of person, and as stated above it makes not a jot of difference to me where you come from, what your background is etc etc etc. I like or dislike people based upon who they are and how they are personally -- the rest, to me, is completely irrelevant. And for what it is worth, you know that I hold you in the highest regard also - if any offence was taken, please accept my apologies and assurance that it was not intended. Zigs - thank you for the edit which makes the original post somewhat clearer.
Perhaps the crux of the matter is that whilst any and every 'minority' group in the UK benefits from the right to free speech, it is years since the indigineous population enjoyed that same right. Whether overtly , through misguided media pressure and legislation, or covertly as a result of peer pressure, the (dare I write it?) average white, Christian Briton lost their freedom of speech ages ago. One of the reasons I left the UK was because I deeply resented being discriminated against in what I had formerly considered was my own country!
There is a problem in this country that we harbour people who would like to see harm come to innocent people for no reason other than the twisted words of some book that does not, as far as I know (and I've studied the major and several 'minor' religions) ask anyone to attack anyone else. There is a bigger problem that society in general does not acknowledge this. Its pushed under the carpet in the name of 'tolerance' and political correctness. When a problem is not acknowledged, it gets worse. Resentment grows, and that breeds hostility. Without a doubt, the vast majority of people are good people, regardless of colour or creed (I don't even know what 'creed' means if I'm honest) or religion or political stance. People having differing views, but the vast majority accept that not everyone shares their view and that everyone else has a right to their own view. A minority do not think like that, and what such minorities try to force their will on others through threats and/or violence, they should be dealt with swiftly within the law. It is this last point that is sadly lacking in the UK. Our government can't even deport a convicted terrorist who doesn't even have British nationality and who publicly preached hatred. Because of this attitude, there is resentment and hostility. Ordinary people, which includes those that are often unfairly tarred with the same brush as the hostile minority, see hostility on their own streets and nothing being done about it. That's the real shame. It means the problem can only get worse. I just hope we can keep it civil on here because this is a very emotive discussion and we're all buddies here.
clueless1 - I am sure that it will remain civil; one of the reasons that I posted this on this forum and not one of the others I am a member of, is the simple fact that intelligent, reasoned discussion was certain to be had here without it descending into a slanging match - - therein lies yet another benefit of this being a friendly, well moderated forum with the best members possible
You are putting our values into their mindset though Pete. and that argument is flawed from the outset: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" is very much a part of our overall philosophy: but, it is not a uniquely British one Just for a moment, consider this: when you got to your GP, is s/he of English decent? Maybe! But, when you go to A&E, where do our consultants originate? Who are our anethetists? Where do our nursing staff originate? Our 'carers'? What about your corner shop? Your post office? Your postmen? How about farm hands? Package workers? Solicitors? Police officers? Teachers? Mechanics? Etc., etc., etc.! Do you ask them their faith before you accept their services? How can you tell if the services/products you use are from a faith which is in accordance of your own? You can't! For all you know, you are (unwittingly, perhaps) subscribing to extremists! But, what if those "extremists" are also fighting for a basic right which, under a different cover, you would subscribe to yourself? Hmm, let's think: freedom of speech? Freedom to a peaceful protest? Freedom to protest against an injustice? I just think, the original post, although well intentioned, creates a bias because it does not give the "whole" story and incites a degree of racial tension. And, to be really fair, sweeping statements have been made without examining the individual case (e.g. the premise of the protest has been lost over emotive statements made within the documentary) and it has spiralled into further sweeping statements and pigeon-holing which borders on something quite unsavoury to contemplate. I am white; I am English; I am proud of who I am and where I stem from. But, some of the comments made have left me feeling a little bit uneasy because they are in total contrast to what I have been brought up to believe in: as an Englishwoman! Maybe I am naïve on some level? I prefer to think I am "broadminded". And, as you so rightly highlight - where else would I go?
Injustice? Questioning someone's who's husband blew himself up in the name of religion? I'd be really surprised if the police came round to ask me questions if my mrs had done that. In fact i'd get the whole community to threaten the rest of the community if that happened.
You are not naive as far as I am concerned Mum - broadminded would be a far more apt description; again, I apologise if the OP set a 'tone' or a 'bias' as that was something that I tried hard to avoid. I first saw the clip this afternoon, and to be honest I was shocked more than anything - I have never seen nor heard anything like it. Living where I do, and working in the line of work I am in, I (sadly) often get to see or have to deal with some pretty horrid stuff, but I also get to see some truly amazing stuff, and have the pleasure of meeting and working with some of the more remarkable and brilliant people. In all probability, it is I that is naive.
Many years ago, I was 'advised' that, contrary to popular belief, the "minority" were in fact the most powerful. To highlight this, the person concerned gave the example of "non-smokers" .... how profound! (at a time when smoking was the habit of the majority!) The whole point is this: call them extremists/terrorists/whatever: there are *some* minority groups who will garner social acceptance and flourish and there are others who will not ... the old adage applies: choose your battles carefully.
The fact of the matter is; nobody should be treated like that, the way the Muslims in this video were acting towards the woman documenting this was totally unacceptable. No matter what their views are they do not have the right to tell somebody who does not follow their religion how to act or dress. It's not biased at all, because those people were behaving in a particular way that does not project the general belief system of that religion. They were out of hand, and I think that the way they are thinking needs to be changed, because it's affecting other people who have nothing to do with that community and that's not how the human race should work. People with views such as the Muslims in this video should go to wherever those views are perceived as "right" and then nobody would be in a situation such as this, and no arguments would be caused.
