Are my fish sulking?

We moved in a couple of years back and inherited a pond. At the time it was well (over?) stocked, but a heron last winter took care of that

Anyhow, haven't seen the heron since the spring, and the fish have been quite keen on coming and eating when I feed them. Best guess at the moment is about 4 goldfish, 2 carp, a roach, a bream and a rud plus some small fry.

A couple of weekends back I got round to cutting back the (many) irises, some of which had collapsed and were giving quite a lot of shelter. The water seemed to clear up a lot in the next couple of days. Since then, I barely see the fish. If I put food in I'll occasionaly see one or two, more likely after a couple of minutes than straight away (when they used to be gannets), but sometimes none at all. We've just tested the water and it's fine for pH, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite (pH was at the high end of normal but still in the normal range).

So (after that essay :o), any thoughts on why the're hiding? Is it likely the heron's coming back? I put in some artificial shelter's in the spring (a couple of lengths of downpipe and a BIG flowerpot on its side), although I'm not sure they get used. I'm just a bit bemused, and I miss seeing them :(

 

You have answered your own quetion Tangle,removing the cover has made them feel vulnerable,you probably still get visits from the heron about day break most days so the fish are wary,try growing a water lily to give them more cover it will make them feel more secure.

 

When we moved in nothing had been touched for about 3 years - not even the filters. The pond had a lot of duckweed, a lot of silt, a lot of curly pond weed (plus a monster waterlily) and the water was fairly murky but it must have been fairly healthy overall as there were newts and frogs.

Last spring we decided it needed a good clean and got people in and looking back they did too good a job. Once we saw how big the waterlily was we all agreed it should go, but they also took out every last speck of silt plus every last piece of duckweed. I don't know what they put in the water but the duckweed didn't come back for 12 months. We haven't seen a newt since they came :(.

Once it was clean we did put in some more plants with the intent of giving the fish some shelter, including a (much smaller) waterlily. Most of them are doing OK, just at their own rate. We got two lots of floating plants (frogbit and water soldiers) to replace the curly pond weed but they both vanished without a trace. The water lily sent up leaves this year, but they never seem to last long (a day or less if they make it to the surface) and so it hasn't done much in terms of fish shelter.

So, any suggestions on how to make my waterlily more happy? Any ideas why the floating plants didn't float for long (we're guessing whatever saw off the duckweed could have been responsible, so thinking of trying again soon)? Any suggestions on how to give the fish some shelter now all the plants are dying back anyway?

OH has vetoed a floating solar fountain job, so I might have to get an inflatible shark instead:D Or try and get creative with an inner tube and some plastic. Something more aesthetically pleasing would be good, though!

 

is algae growing in the pond? or is the water crisp and clear, also what are the exact ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels? it sounds like something has defo been added to the water to keep the plants at bay, do you have the break down from the workmen of what they did and what they added? if it's been 12months and still nothing is growing it sounds like a fairly aggressive planticide theyve added; loads of these exist on the market to cut down algae growth (which is why I asked how that is doing).
How are the fish doing? how do they look around their gills, are they redder than normal? what about their fins? (the planticide shouldn't affect the fish at all but if it's in huge doses it's best to check)
and last bit, but did they add any dechlorinator once they topped up the pond? the chlorine and chloromine in tap water isnt going to help your plants any either, though to be fair after this length of time that should have sorted itself out by now
I'd be tempted to do as large a water change as possible to dilute down that planticide level, and get things growing again

 

riverside - thanks for the suggestions. In answer to your questions:

There's a little bit of blanketweed that grows in the shallow water at the top of the return from the filters (there's a small pool that spills over a waterfall), but there rarely seems to be much in the pond itself - I've only found enough to pull out once this year. There might be a little bit of algae but not a huge amount and its certainly not a problem.

For the first couple of months after they came the water was crystal clear. Then we had a problem with the pump last autumn and it all got rather murky. This year its been clearish in general, and much clearer since I cut back the irises. Whether that's because the fish are less active I don't know, but I can now see things that are about 75cm down quite clearly (I might be able to see the bottom at about 90cm, but there isn't much there to see...)

Test results were pH - 8.5, Ammonia - 0, Nitrite <<<0.1 (the sample turned very slightly pink, but no where near as pink as the 0.1 on the colour match chart), Nirate - 0.

The fish seem fine. Last autumn I noticed what I now think is Carp Pox on a couple of them - I hadn't seen it before, but then the water had been so murky before it might have been there unobserved. I haven't noticed any redness, but then a lot of the fish are black and they're all pretty shy at the moment...

I can't put my hand on the information they left but, from memory, they didn't say they'd added a dechlorinator. I had a new baby at the time, though, so I'll confess I wasn't concentrating too hard on the details of what they were doing. The pond gets topped up with rainwater from one of the downpipes, so it does get a partial refresh fairly frequently. The way the duckweed is back does make me think whatever they chucked in may have (finally) dispersed. The shallow water/marginals are all growing fine and did so last year as well - it was just the deeper water and floating plants that seemed to suffer.

 

Hello,

Whilst it might be possibly adding to the lack of sightings, it probably is more likely due to a drop of temperature below 10-12 degrees.

As the water temperature drops so they feed less. You shouldn`t feed fish once the temperature gets below 10* degrees at all. They can`t digest the food and you will only be spoiling the water.

Generally speaking you shouldn`t feed your fish from the end of October through to roughly end of March.

I hope this helps, it isn`t advice off me, but my husband who has kept show standard Koi carp.

He has said he would be quite happy to assist you further, could you post any pics of the fish, the pond, the general set up-anything info at all.

 

The Nitrate should certainly not read 0, so something is defo going wrong somewhere; in an aquarium the tank is cycled for the benefit of the fish before addition, in a pond this process though lengthier and taken on using a different method due to the larger body of water you are dealing with, the results should read around the same. what is the test kit you are using? the test kit I use for my aquariums (API master), the nitrate test is very precise as to how to carry out the test.
Not adding the dechlorinator wouldnt have been wonderful for the pond, but after 12months as said before it shoud really have sorted itself out by now

 

With respect to Riverside, the nitrate, nitrite and ammonia levels should all read zero in a matured pond. The ph should read somewhere between 7.0 and 8.0, but Don`t overly worry at that level, if it gets higher you can lower with small water changes. Chemically altering the ph should only be used in emergency situations as they are only short term changes. Mr Pops could do with more info about the filter ie is it a black box type filter or a purpose bought filter. Is there an UV lighting rig? as this can help to clear the pond, if it has have you recently changed the bulb?

It`s quite possible that whoever it was that cleared the pond used a chemical, this would wear off in time, and it is highly dangerous to use this product and he says it is irresponsible to name it on a public forum because people would then buy it and use it.(It is extremely toxic to plantlife and is carcinogenic).

All of the above has been dictated to me to type by my hubby, who I have now told to set himself up his own username!!

 

hmmmm I'm not so sure about that, the readings I have in my tanks are ammonia 0, nitrite 0 nitrate 5, I know a few people with ponds too and their reading for nitrate are approx 15-20, so defo not 0. Nitrate is the bacteria that deals with the toxic stuff

ammonia breaks into nitrite which then breaks into nitrate, nitrate level maintained = healthy water

 

it is the bacteria in your filters that remove the nitrate from the water and in a pond with the correct filtration system and flow rates a reading of zero is desirable, due to the fact that nitrate is non toxic to fish a reading of upto 200 ppm (20 on standard test kits) is acceptable, but this higher level only promotes the growth of algae and blanketweed, as ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish it is essential these reading are kept to zero.

The Carp Pox is a condition which occurs due to cold water temperatures-below 20* and is quite common in unheated ponds in Britain, though unsightly it won`t actaully harm the fish and is only a cause for concern, unless they seem to develop into ulcers inwhich case it won`t be Carp pox but something else and medication will become necessary.

If the water is a metre deep it is a dead certainty the heron will return to have a buffet-it might be worth netting over the pond to protect the fish.

Again, this is dictated to me and this is absolutely the final time I will do this-he can get his own acct.

 

Pond keepers should aim to remove nitrate completely from pond water and then to keep it at nil for long periods. ,try to reduce nitrate level to zero and keep it there. An additional benefit of this is that algae will starve to death. Removal of nitrate must also be seen as a prime objective in relation to good fish health. Once nitrate is removed from pond water the pond becomes a healthier place for fish and other aquatic life. Many pond keepers say that, when nitrate is at zero, fish become "livelier", are "happier"and become "different animals". Where does the ammonia then nitrite then nitrate come from? It mainly arises indirectly from the protein that is in the food fish take in. It can also arise from the decay of organic debris in ponds.
Nitrosomonas bacteria in the bio filter convert the ammonia to nitrite and then nitrobacter bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate. Oxygen dissolved in water allows these processes to take place. To complete the cycle of breaking nitrates down to nitrogen requires anaerobic conditions.

 

I will happily stand corrected regarding nitrate levels (I dont own my own pond yet, so i'm only going on what I've been told by others on that front).
However i will disagree with where you are saying the ammonia levels are starting from, true the fish food and organic break down can contribute to the levels, the main source is fish waste - and fish such as goldies will produce a LOT of waste (which is why they are no good usually as aquarium pets, and require major overfiltration in this set up). ammonia is a constant 'supply' if you like into the water, as said by PP ammonia is highly toxic and is the cause of many a problem in any water set up, as it's slightly reduced but still just as toxic bed-buddy nitrite, nitrate is the good stuff and is not harmful to fish and is actually required in a mature aquarium set up, as said before I will stand corrected that you dont really want it in a pond

note to self: go by facts and ignore hearsay in future :dh:

 

You may want to consider that ammonia and nitrite is more toxic to fish at a higher PH and higher temperatures. Very high and very low PH will play havoc with your bacteria too.
Nitrate is not as dangerous to fish as nitrite and ammonia. In an outdoor pond, weed and algae will make good use of it as will any plants.
An aquarium on the other hand is highly dependant on human intervention, water changes to control the nitrate etc. They are usually better aerated and warmer so the fish feed heavier which leads to higher levels of waste and ammonia. A lot of standard aquarium filters are not up to the task
Being a small body of water they are much less stable than a reasonable sized pond.

 

Hex I would agree aquariums can be a lot tougher to look after than a pond would be due to the smaller bodies of water involved, and the smaller the aquarium the harder it gets. I also defo agree many aquarium filters certainly cannot cope with the bio-load and in turn can cause more issues than they assist
both my tanks (300 and 90 litres) are filterated using external filters which can cope with larger water volume than is contained in the tanks (over filtration I think is possibly a better term btw lol), and both tanks are fully and properly cycled before anyone was added, i also have lots of live plants (which are thriving) in both tanks, this is without any co2 system either. As well as keeping ammonia and nitrite to a stable zero, nitrate in a aquarium needs to kept below 20ppm (mine reads 5) algae is kept down with moss balls with absorb the same nutrients algae require for growth, added to a few loaches and plecs - no issue with algae, and as the tank was properlt cycled no issue with ammonia or nitrite either: my common plec is a one fish poo factory so i'd defo know by now :wink:
also over feeding in a aquarium, especially the tropicals such as i have, will do nothing but give you a shed load of snails

 

Hi Riverside
I think most people test for ammonia and nitrite but, in my experience at least, far fewer check the PH. I guess they think its not quite as important as checking for ammonia :wink:

Altering the PH by more than 0.5 per day is not good for fish but as an example lets say someone did a major water change to a tank or pond that raised the PH by 2 points, eg: 6.5 - 8.5, the ammonia level needs to be 100X lower or the water could suddenly become toxic to the fish.
Lower the PH by one point and you can have 10x the ammonia level and still be safe.

Most people would consider a water change as a good thing, which it normally is but you do have to be careful.

I know what you mean about pleco`s, i have two 15" (a common and a snowking) pretty much compost machines with fins :wink: