Change from raised bed to dug out bed

I have decided not to go the raised bed route
and go to dug out

I have now removed the grass, and have my area bare soil
in two beds, one 12'x6' and one 12' x 3'

I need the large one for potatoes and stuff so rich in compost/manure

The smaller one for Onions , carrots, and general salad stuff so just loam/soil

My question is how deep would be the minimum
I was hoping 24" would be enough for each

My intention is to dig out completely the area down to 24"
Use the soil/loam to fill the small bed, riddled of stones

Fill the Larger bed with compost, horse manure and some of the reclaimed soil well mixed

I also need to get rid of two tonne of beach stones, would it be a good idea to chuck these in the bottom of each bed, or would I regret it ?

I feel I must post my Scrungee bargain of the year post here too

Scrungee
Took myself to B&Q This morning, looking for the£1 growbags
Yep pallets of them stacked high
OK I will just go in have a look around the plants, then come back with a trolley trailer
Wow you will not believe this
In the garden centre they had a pallet of "damaged" compost bags
(either the colour had faded or someone had put their thumb through the bag, all still full though)
50p per bag
I have been desperately looking for soil/compost to fill up my garden

Well I took
18 x 70L B&Q Multi compost
4 x 75L Grow Wise compost
2 x 35L Sterile Top soil

Went through the till and you will not believe this
TOTAL £5.50p

They kept it safe for me whilst I made a further two 7mile round journeys to collect it all :-)
I did point out to a manager and till, was it right as I had 24 bags at 70L
Just said no that is right
The top soil is normally 4.48 35L and the GrowWise 5.98 75L alone

RESULT at last


Jack McHammocklashing

 

"I have decided not to go the raised bed route"

Sorry, not seen earlier discussions. What's the reason for / against raised beds? (I wouldn't grow veg any other way ... but partly that is because I'm on heavy clay soil)

"I need the large one for potatoes and stuff "

You need to move ("Rotate") the crops round each year, so even if that is the bed for Spuds this year you'll need to squeeze your Spuds into one of the other beds next year. Is that going to work OK?

"My intention is to dig out completely the area down to 24""

"Dig out" as in discard the soil? Shouldn't be necessary (unless something very wrong with your soil).

Double Dig as John has said. That means to dig it two spades (so called "spits") depth but do NOT mix the soil from the top spit and the bottom, sub-soil, spit. The bottom spit won#t be anything like as "good" as the top one.

Mix in plenty of well rotted manure / compost / whatever you have available or can reasonably get hold of.

Then its ready for planting. repeating the Digging and adding-of-compost each year will improve the "heart" of the soil rapidly, and after 3 or 4 years you won't recognise the difference.

"I also need to get rid of two tonne of beach stones"

You could use them to make a French Drain - if you land is heavy, or to make sure excess water drains away well.

Pavingexpert - AJ McCormack & Son - Drainage - Land Drainage for Fields and Gardens

 

I have just started gardening so this is my first plot
I know about rotation, and this will be done during the year opening up another two plots

My soil is good ex farm fields,
I was going raised bed purley for the ease of no bending, but realised it would need digging over and incovenient, so I am going for dug out plots
pureley as a fresh start, I have the compost and the manure plus sterile top soil

Dig out and use the soil after riddling for the soil bed and topped up with the sterile soil I have

So from information I have so far, 24" depth of good compost loam and manure for my potato bed would be fine
And 24" of pure loam/sterile soil will be OK for my Onion. carrot bed ?

I will now use the beach pebbles as my pathways instead of the scaffolding boards with edging

During this first year I will dig out another two plots, and do the same ready for next years rotation

The land was originally farmers fields growing produce the top 18" is rich but stoney, thus me cleaning it all out to a sterile 2' deep 12' x 6' all fresh

I can use the spoil ex stones elsewhere
I am not into anything grand produce wise
Potatoes in one, Onions, carrots, and salad in another, I have runner beans and peas to be in wigwams in the borders

Main concern is in the depth, will 24" be sufficient, not just potatoes but general produce in future years

Regards Jack McHammocklashing

 

That's more like it!

Always look out for multisaves as these very often work even with reduced bags, so always buy reduced in the correct multiples in case you get both discounts, and perhaps occasionally a 'glitch' where the saving is taken off at the full price. (not Wickes though) and 10% over 60's discount and 15% off day discounts work with general reductions (not individually reduced stickered stuff). B&Q/Homebase very often have damaged bags of sharp sand reduced as low as 50p and I even got 2 damaged bags of horticultural sand reduced to 50p each late last year - so thas't somewhere else to have a look around instore.


EDIT: Found out how you might have been getting it so cheap (unfortunately my local B&Q haven't had any of these reduced bags)

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3761597

If they've got any left go back & get the rest - it's free! (if bought in multiples of 3). What I normally do if suspecting something like this is on the cards is to make a sample purchase first (leaving my wife behind with a trolley stacked up) and make some other essential/bargain purchase with it as it will set alarm bells ringing if your entire shop goes through the tills as 'free'. I've been know to decide not to buy when it either doesn't work out good enough or the store has changed their pricing software to avoid including both reductions. Jack - there's mention in that link of some stores that may be local to you that don't have any, just incase you're heading off to them to look for more.

 

:thumb: all sounds good then

OK, those would be seriously tall raised beds My raised beds are something like 6"-9" we are on heavy clay, and this improves the drainage dramatically. We NEVER walk on the beds - and I do mean absolutely NEVER! We don't dig them (although in a sense we do - when we lift Potatoes and parsnips etc) we just spread well rotted manure / compost on them (but not on the bed for this season's Parsnips). The soil is now pretty fluffy - well, relatively, for me, given that everywhere else around the garden is only good-for-making-bricks!

You can achieve the same by making "beds", don't walk on them, and make them no more than 4' wide - so you can reach the middle from either side. If the soil is "heaped up" a bit in the beds, as it probably will be with added compost etc., you will in effect have raised beds - what are often referred to as "lazy raised beds" 'coz you didn't have to construct all the wooden surrounds :thumb:

Hopefully your soil is something that drains better than my clay ?

"Dig out and use the soil after riddling for the soil bed and topped up with the sterile soil I have"

Do you have a REALLY serious stone problem? If not then I doubt that riddling is called for (and its a back breaking job, unless you hire a machine). We have very few stones, but those that work their way to the surface I pick off and throw into a pile at the end of the vegetable beds - sometimes I hit the bullseye, sometimes I have to walk over and retrieve it from the lawn!

"So from information I have so far, 24" depth of good compost loam and manure for my potato bed would be fine
And 24" of pure loam/sterile soil will be OK for my Onion. carrot bed ?"

24" is absolutely masses I would have thought. I have about 9" of top-soil before I hit solid, nearly-Blue, clay.

"I will now use the beach pebbles as my pathways instead of the scaffolding boards with edging"

Personally I prefer grass for paths in Veg Patch. Gravel/Stones pick up on Wellies covered in mud in winter and then get dropped everywhere on the route back to the Kitchen ...

"During this first year I will dig out another two plots, and do the same ready for next years rotation"

OK .. but ... don't you need the plots for those crops in this years' rotation? or are you just going to only grow some specific things in the first year, and more in following years?

"I am not into anything grand produce wise"

Consider high-cost / high-yield / flavour you cannot get in the shops / varieties you cannot get in the shops

e.g. Runner Beans - high yield, labour intensive to pick, so expensive in shops. Ditto for Raspberries

Sweetcorn - you cannot get that flavour in the shops, the Sugar starts turning to Starch the moment you pick them (so get them into the pan of boiling water WITHIN 5 minutes :thumb: )

Varieties : Supermarket want Tomatoes with thicker skins so they don't bruise when tipped into the bins in the shop. You can grow thinner skinned ones, that are more tasty

Other things to consider:

Area for soft fruit. Takes a year to establish, you won't get anything/much in the first year. Also a Strawberry bed -they need to stay-put for 3 years or so. So worth doing that early on, if you want some of those (all other things being equal!!)

Asparagus: takes 3 year, and you need to prepare the bed well. If you will make a bed for next year consider growing from seed this year, they will be ready to plant next year and you'll save a lot on buying Crowns next year.

Perennial veg - I have a length of about 6' on the end of each of my rotation-beds for Globe Artichoke, Jerusalem Artichoke, Rhubarb

Comfrey? Having a patch of Comfrey is good in a veg patch. You need the sterile Bocking-14 variety, otherwise it will self seed everywhere and is a devil to get rid of. its tough as old boots, so getting half a dozen roots off eBay [or from an "old boy at an allotment" near you] will be plenty. Cut it down once you get a good crop of leaves, put the leaves in a large bucket of water for a couple of weeks (by which time it will STINK!) and then dilute it into a watering can to the colour of weak tea. Very good high-Potash fertilizer for fruiting vegetables.

"Main concern is in the depth, will 24" be sufficient, not just potatoes but general produce in future years"

Its more than plenty :thumb: Potatoes you "earth up", drawing the earth over the top of the plants to make a "ridge", so they get extra depth that way.

 

The Archeologists i've worked with use a sieve suspended from a frame, like a kids swing frame, takes a lot of the effort out of it.

 

Checked my receipts that I could not really fathom out, and that link you posted is correct as it says, so mainly free
I did check with a manager and the tills before I walked away to be arrested,
They just said well that is what the till says

I am ashamed to say I made two more trips and cleared them out
But I really needed it, not just to store
It is the best bargain I have ever had in my life, do you think I should buy a lottery ticket ?

Jack McH

 

Buy a premuim bond Jack, I bought one in 1968.

 

I only have a small garden and I am new to gardening, so it is basic veg gardening, no soft fruits, as they appear to be too complicated, to grow, cut this, from last year, crop on that this year, I would not have a clue

I can not grow brassicas as serious club root 40 years ago when I tried the easy to grow cabbage and cauliflower, yeah right
Even so the idea has struck me with totally new beds, the club root would not be there would it, but again I do not have the area required

I am restricted in the size, so have two beds this year that I may be able to manage, and when I am retired in April, I can start on another two beds the same size for next year and then that is my lot I am afraid as SWMBO wants her lawn and the grandkids swing and slide
I say lawn it is more a mini meadow, need to work on that when I am retired, then when I am deed someone can walk into a nice garden that I never had :-)

I have ideas for runner beans and peas grown up my border fence amongst the bedding plants, again I do not know what to do planting wise
the fence is 7 metres long, do I plant one plant each metre IE four peas and three runner beans, or can I plant three of each at each metre ?
Again I have gone a bit over the top and the borders are soft and rich loam/compost I tried it last year using bottomless pots, but did not manage to plant until Late July, I ended up in OCTOBER with two pea pods and a couple of red flowers on the runner beans

Stone problem, I do not know if it really is a problem, but again as new to the game, I thought you had to have pure stone free, compost and soil
my stones are plentiful and about half and inch round
Last summer I quite happily riddled half a ton of soil which when stone free I dug out and placed in the greenhouse beds, incorporating sharp sand, and vermiculite topped off with a top dressing of Bofforous ? fine brown stuff that kills wriggly things ? wire worms is it I think ?

That about sums it up

If I really do not need 24" deep beds it would really save me a lot of digging this weekend

Jack McH

 

That is my ASDA throw through sieve then, portable on wheels

Jack McH

 

Gotcha!

Depends. Yes, Currants and the like require pruning using a technique which is not exactly "basic", but Raspberries are easy. At the end of the season you cut down any "cane" that has had fruit on it (you can do it as soon as it has finished fruiting, whilst you can still see the remanants of the fruit on the cane). That's it - no need to know whether it is a "Summer" or "Autumn" fruiting type. Strawberries you can just plant and crop for the next 3 or 4 years (Yes, you can faff about taking "runners" off each year, and using them to refresh 1/3rd of the area each year ... but you don't have to )

Club root is a swine :(, and very infectious and lingers in the soil for ages - there are plenty of weeds in the Brassica family, and they will perpetuate the disease, even if you don't grow any cabbages. There are Clubroot resistant varieties now, so if you really love Spouts, Cauli's or Cabbages then that might be worth a punt. But no sense growing veg varieties unless you actually enjoy eating them :thumb:

Perfect! A 4 bed, 4 year, rotation is ideal. If you don't grow any Brassicas then you could do Spuds in one of the beds instead. The rotation groups are:

Garlic / Onions / Leeks
Parsnips / Carrots / "Roots"
Spuds
Peas and Beans
Sprouts / Caulis / Cabbage / "Brassicas"

Then things like Lettuce, Radish etc. go in wherever you choose.

That would work well. You CAN grow Runner Beans in the same place each year, so the fence could become your permanent planting bed for Runners. They have nice red flowers too, so would look nice as a backdrop to your bedding plants. It would be good to make a trench (now-ish) and fill it with rotted manure (or uncomposted vegetable waste, newspaper etc) as that all helps retain water for the Bean plants, and by the end of the year it will all have rotted down nicely :thumb:

You need them a lot closer than that ... best to follow the instructions on the back of the packet as it may vary depending on variety.

I had a dreadful year with Runners last year, I don;t know if our weather was the same as yours, but it might have been the season as much as anything. I also had some Climbing French Beans and they started much earlier. Although July is a bit late to start sowing them, and Peas are much happier sown early in the season, than later.

No harm taking them out - apart from the effort! If the surface of your borders is littered with them then you have a lot, but if you only see a few on the surface (although there are quite a few when you work the soil) I (personally) would not worry about them - just chuck them in a heap as you come across them on the surface of the soil.

The vegetables you grow will appreciate Double Digging (hopefully you can find a YouTube for what that means - you dig two spade depths, but it is important that you do not mix the bottom and top layers), and if you don't walk on the beds and use plenty of compost / rotted manure each season then you should not need to dig them again, or at least not often. My guess is that the depth of a spade (a "spit") is nearer to 9" - so the cultivated depth would be 18".