Hallo GC

This isn�t quite my first post, but I thought I�d better introduce myself before I start plaguing you all with questions.

I�m a qualified, but very inexperienced, garden designer, and I�ve just taken on my first live project. A friend of mine has just moved into a new house with about 200 sq. metres of neglected garden, and he�s asked me to design and plant a complete makeover (on a minimal budget). I�m confident I can produce a good design on paper, but while I know a lot of theory, I�m not a horticulturist, and my practical gardening experience is only a little more than zero. I�ve certainly never built a whole new garden from scratch before, so I�m going to be looking for advice. I hope to be as close to 100% organic and as wildlife-friendly as possible.

I expect the project to take at least a couple of years to complete, with hard-landscaping work starting later this year. The design isnââ?¬â?¢t finalised yet, but when it is I shall post more details on the ââ?¬Å?Garden Projectsââ?¬Â forum for your entertainment . In the meantime, Iââ?¬â?¢ve spent the last couple of months getting to know the site, cutting back overgrowth and generally tidying up for the summer. I now have to deal with a Couch grass/composting/logistics problem, and advice would be much appreciated.

There are three parts to the question:

1. One end of the garden is partitioned off and was formerly a vegetable garden. About 60% of this area is covered with concrete (with a greenhouse and shed), enclosing a plot shaped like a quarter circle of about 5m radius. One third of this plot has been mulched with membrane and gravel; the remainder is now completely covered with Couch. What�s the best way of getting rid of this? I have plenty of old carpet/membrane for mulching, if that is the best method, but I was thinking about de-turfing the whole area and composting the turf, on an area of concrete hard-standing, to dig back in next year. Would this work?

2. I now have a large pile of organic material ready for composting, and a large quantity of stone blocks from a demolished rockery I can use to build a temporary compost bin. The only practical place to site this is on the membrane-covered area mentioned above (removing membrane first, of course), but I suspect that putting a compost heap immediately next to a Couch infestation is not a good idea. Am I right? I could dig a trench between the bin and the Couch and line it with membrane as a root barrier. Would this work? Any other suggestions?

3. I also have a large pile (25+ barrowloads) of topsoil from said rockery. It has to be moved from where it is, but I�m short of usable space. I could incorporate it into the compost heap as a layer at the base. Would this work?

I have more questions, but those are the most pressing. I�m looking forward to getting to know you all.

All the best
Geometer

 

Hello and welcome - question do we get a fee for helping you with your design work :D :D

Whatever in respect to your questions

1. I am having some difficulty with your description - you are dealing with a part of a vegetable plot, that is one third covered with membrane and mulch, and two thirds riddled with couch grass. I don't understand your description of deturfing and composting the turf - if by turf you are talking about the cut couch grass, then don't do it. However what you do depends entirely on what your propose for the area. If you are looking to use the area for growing things plants/veggies etc - then removing as much couch grass root as possible and then eithr Roundup applied to each emerging leaf may get some control before planting in the autumn - or mulch and membrane planting through that may be a better tack depending on the origin of the couch.

2. If two thirds of hte plot is couch riddled, the chances are the roots are already under the membrane and mulch. There is no problem that I can see with removing the mulch and membrane - compacting the area, and putting your compost heap on top - re membraning/mulching tightly to the edges. Couch will not grow up from underneath as there will be no light so there is little likelihood of roots accessing the compost. Not sure that your idea of stone walls is best option in terms of air circulation and turning compost.

3 I wouldn't do this a) its a waste of good top soil, and b) raising the bin above the ground level will encourage couch access. Put it where you are likely to put borders or beds, even if this is not dug our yet (not obviously on top of couch)

you will have to see if other members of this forum agree.

 

I'm in 100% agreement with Fran.

Somewhat confused by your descriptions ââ?¬â?? could be my depleted grey matter though. As you are qualified in CAD etc an outline plan of your project would help me and other users of this site visualise the concept.

One or two suggestions that may or may not help:

The top couple of inches of soil are the most valuable as far as regards nutrients as they contain all the previously decayed plant matter. You can stack ââ?¬Å?turfââ?¬Â from the top couple of inches and even if it has some couch or other weeds in it, if you cover it with a light and water excluding cover youââ?¬â?¢ll kill most of the nasties in about 18 months. When it's dry breaking up the turf and picking out the dried roots isn't too arduous.

Couch grass spreads by rhizomes (bits of root) and if you leave any bits in the ground they�ll soon raise their ugly heads unless you block off light by a membrane.

Why build a temporary compost heap? Go for a permanent one. A garden that size could use one.

Two or three applications of "Roundup" should help reduce the couch grass situation.

CADs great for planning, but there's no substitute for getting "down & dirty"

[ 30. May 2006, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]

 

Fran and Dave W, thank you for your very helpful responses, just the advice I need.

Dave W. Re: posting CAD drawings. Good point, but technically difficult at the moment. I'm working on it.

Fran. Just to make it clear: I'm not being paid for this work, except for basic expenses and a few meals (if I was, I'd be more than willing to make a donation to Gardener's Corner). I'm doing it partly as a favour to a friend who's done me more than a few favours in the past,and partly for the practical experience.

My sentiments exactly.

Thanks, I'll be back.
Geometer

 

Amazing. I've spent three months faffing around trying to convert AutoCAD drawings to Jpegs for the web, and it turns out all I had to do was take a screenshot. You live and learn. Anyway, this should make it easier to explain what I'm trying to do.

The first pic is an overview of the garden, looking West. The veg plot is at the far end beyond the shrubs.


The second pic shows the veg plot itself, taken from the SE corner, about a month ago.


The third pic is a sketch plan of this area, (dimensions approximately 8m x 8m).


Referring to the plan: At point X I have a large pile, about 5' high, of compostable material. Next to it is a pile of topsoil of similar volume. I put them here for practical reasons; my "client" (who I shall refer to as "L" from now on) wants them moved, by the end of the month, for aesthetic reasons.

Point Z is the spot I've earmarked for a permanent compost bin, but it's currently covered in concrete. This will be coming up at some point in the future, so I can't build anything permanent there yet.

My proposal is to construct a three-sided, dry-stone walled "holding bin" at point Y, maybe 2m x 2m, until such time as a permanent bin can be built. I had assumed that it would be unwise to build this directly onto a couch infestation - am I wrong?

With regard to the use of Roundup: I'm not sure yet exactly what this area will be used for, as it depends on whether L can afford to have all the concrete (including the bases of the shed and greenhouse) lifted. Assuming he can't (it's a different ballgame entirely if he can), then it's most likely to be a combination of veg plot and wildlife area, so I'm very reluctant to use chemicals here. I'll go down that road only if there is no organic way to get rid of the couch.

With regard to the topsoil: There's really nowhere I can spread it that isn't going to smother something already growing. It's also a resource that I want to keep until I have a specific use for it - probably to fill new raised beds at the house end of the garden. I was thinking of putting some of it as a layer at the base of the "holding bin", within the walls, the theory being that it would be enriched by nutrients leaching from the compost above. The remainder will probably be stored on the concrete in front of the shed, where the pile of brash is now (pic 2), but that depends on L forking out for the hire of a shredder to deal with the brash first, and he's protesting about the expense :rolleyes: .

Why is it not a good idea to de-turf (i.e. remove as slabs) the couch? Will it not break down if kept under black plastic sheeting? I was also considering this as a way of reducing fertility prior to sowing a wildflower meadow.

I hope this has made things clearer. Maybe I'm over-complicating it, but I've never done this before and I'm working it all out as I go along. I'm also trying to conserve resources and be as environmentally sound as possible. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Geometer

 

Couch cannot compete with lawn grasses. If the area is to be lawn then just keep mowing it. Rake it hard and sow with grass seed. Even if you want to use the land for something else later, you will only then have to stip the lawn turves. Depends on how much of a hurry you are in.

 

Thanks Hornbeam, but I'm not sure I follow you. Whatever else I put there, it's not going to be a lawn - or are you suggesting that just as a long-term, chemical-free way of dealing with the couch? If so, it could be an option - planting that area is not the highest priority in the garden, although I would like to put a native hedge along the north side ASAP.

 

"then it's most likely to be a combination of veg plot and wildlife area"

OK now I've got a bit more idea of what you are talking about. I think its really important that you have an idea of what this area is going to be before you do anything further. If the concrete is coming up - if at all possible, get that up first - if its couch grass the roots will be underneath.

1. Roundup is glyphospate, it is absorbed through the leaf, and becomes inert on contact with the soil. Therefore it is entirely suitable for clearing or at least reducing the couch grass prior to converting it into a veg plot or wild life space. Cut the grass - and add to your compost before applying the spray to the new growth. Repeat after two weeks - then dig over and remove all traces of the grass - do not compost this.

2. If you don't want to use chemicals - and your friend want it for vegetables, then digging it up, then membraning and mulch is the way to go. Planting through the membrane.

3. If your friend wants a wild garden area or the like as above but don't membrane and mulch. Just remove as much of it as possible and then just plant your wild plants. I really don't think that wild garden and vegetable garden sit well to gether in terms of damage to produce. However dence planting of wild flowers and other grasses and the like will keep it in check. It actually quite a pretty long grass.

4. If you just want to remove the couch and leave the area clean for use unknown in the future, there is really no alternative than roundup - or as Hornbeam said turn it into a lawn as a temporary measure though the couch may still need to be addressed later.

5. In respect of the top soil - it really needs to be kept to one side for respreading when things are straight. I wouldn't put it at the base of a temporary compost bin.

Hope that helps.

 

It certainly does Fran, thank you.

A couple of questions though: I've been informed, by somebody I've no reason to doubt, that glyphosate has been shown to leave a residue in the soil - can you assure me that's not the case? Secondly, would removing the couch in slabs (i.e. de-turfing) to a depth of, say, 6", be a good way of reducing fertility before sowing a wildflower meadow?

I feel more questions coming on, but I need to do some thinking first

thanks
Geometer

 

Hi Geometer, it is my understanding that Glyphosphate does not leave a residue. And that it breaks down fairly readily after contacting the earth, as Fran says. However after Googling I found it was difficult to find proof of a negative.

It works by being applied in a intense way to the foliage which absorbs it. Even if there were a residue, it would be spread over a large volume of soil and could not achieve the same sort of concentrated application that is necessary.

It is covered under SYSTEMIC in the following link. But is not in the NON SELECTIVE category which work by remaining in the soil.

http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.co.uk/weedkill.htm

 

As far as I am aware, there is no residue - though you should remove the dead plant material and as I said, don't compost that.

In respect of taking the top layer off to reduce fertility. No - you said this was a vegetable garden before - the nutrients introduced at that time will be deeper than the top layer. For information when I moved into this house I inherited a large vegetable garden and made it into a wild flower garden by raking and sowing - great fun watching it evolve. Its now a woodland garden :D

 

Well done on the pics and plan Geometer!
I need to do more thinking and to print out the photos and plan, but a couple of thoughts struck me.
Regarding building a compost heap over the couch. If you put a layer of plastic down over the couch it won't grow through it, and it may well pop up again when you remove the temporary heap. It will be a bit weaker though.

Removing couch rhizomes down to 6 inches will help, but it is really horrible stuff and you'll still find it re-emerging from the little bits you miss. I'd say that your options would be to settle for a couple or three years of digging it out or one summer of repeated glysophate.

On no account plant a native hedge until you are sure all the couch grass where you plant it has been killed. Getting rid of couch from around established plants is an absolute pain. We had it in an established rose bed when we moved in and the only way we got rid of it was by digging out the roses and spending a couple of years digging out couch and Roundup'ing every spring.

[ 02. June 2006, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]

 

Thanks for all the info, given me a lot to think about. I'm logging off for a couple of weeks for a complete system upgrade. Back soon
Geometer