It appalls me how widespread this problem is. When my father was in hospital (dying) we encountered hard-faced, indifferent nursing and also, wonderful gentleness and kindness. It's worth noting that he was on a regime of total non-intervention, including no nutrition or fluids. As a family, this was very hard to watch, but we were told that it would prolong his suffering to give this "care", and in retrospect, I concede they were right. There were more sensitive ways of dealing with us, though. My sister and mother were a regular presence during these weeks, and certain aspects of the nursing appear to change, apparently as a result of the family asking questions and applying gentle pressure. My aunt was hospitalised a few years ago and encountered similarly good and bad treatment. Taking her to the toilet was deemed inconvenient, so they let her wet herself which was totally humiliating and mortifying for her. This February she died, after a massive stroke, in Gloucester RI. During the few days she was there, the staff were unfailingly kind and helpful to her, withdrawing all care but preserving her peace, comfort and dignity. They were also very kind to me and my sisters, allowing us 24 access to the ward, with no fuss, and making us pots of tea. To end on a positive note, I didn't see how the care could have been bettered from any of the staff who were around. Hope I die before I get old. If not, i'd better fix it to be in Gloucester.
I'm not so sure that a hospital initiating a regime of non-intervention is something I support or think is morally right. My elderly brother-in-law was in hospital after falling ill and when my sister went to visit her husband they had put him on that regime, but without telling her or even consulting her. I believe the name they put to the non-intervention regime is "The Path". They had withdrawn all fluids, food, and drugs prescribed by his Doctor. Surely such action should require the permission of the family. The North American Indians and Eskimos used to leave their elderly behind, when they thought their time had come, for the cold and animals to finish off. I just can't see the difference between "The Path" and the method used ages ago. By withdrawing all sustenance and medication the method doesn't just hasten the death of the poor unfortunate but actually kills them, which to me is a form of State Euthanasia. I thought this Country doesn't, in law, support euthanasia?? Perhaps, I'm being harsh in my view, but to me "The Path" is no more than an excuse to abandon a "dying" person and withdrawing the care that everyone in that position is entitled to. I don't think anyone reading this, in their time of need, would like to be placed on "The Path" without themselves and/or their family being consulted before the regime is initiated and permission being given.
When my father was in hospital he initiated the non-intervention. He told them he would not take any food and would just have an absolute minimum of water, but would continue with the morphine. He gave strict instructions that he didn't want to be put on a drip. He actually asked them to increase the morphine beyond the maximum allowed but they said they couldn't do it.
This is a very emotive subject to a lot of people. Your father sounds like he was a very courageous and pragmatic man, Shiney. But I think I wouldn't be wrong in saying that non-intervention regime is initiated generally, today, without the consultation or permission of the next of kin. I think that is what I really object to.
I can see why you think this. But consider - if you were very elderly, already frail and disabled, with no chance of full recovery, only of being kept alive in a half-existence, confused and semi conscious at best, for a short while longer, wouldn't you pick the quickest route? Would you want to lie there unable to move, eat or swallow for longer than was necessary? As the hard-faced nurse put it to us - "Do you want him to suffer for longer?" The medical staff know, from long experience, which patients have no chance of recovery. It's just the families, emotionally attached, and in denial about the patient's condition that find it hard. I would have appreciated a kinder and gentler presentation of the unpalatable facts, though. Our permission was certainly not sought before embarking on this course of treatment. But it is probably is what my father would have chosen, had he been able to express a preference. I think it is only used when the patient is dying anyway.
As far as I am aware, euthanasia, no matter what it`s form or title, is still illegal in this country, with or without permission.
Madhhlia, I can see your argument but let's just take you point of view point by point. If a patient is very elderly, frail and disabled, with no chance of full, only being kept alive in a half existence, confused and semi-conscious at best, for a short time longer, that possibly means that he/she isn't capable of making such a decision as to whether to live or die. But their family can. Also if this was a perfect world we could be happy in the knowledge that the Medical Service and staff had perfect powers in taking care of, diagnosing, and predicting that a patient will die on such a day,at such a time. But it isn't a perfect world, as we know, our Medical Service and staff aren't perfect. Just by looking at the previous posts alone we know that patients aren't given perfect care or diagnoses. A doctor, consultant, or nursing staff aren't able to predict with absolute certainty that someone is dying and that there's no chance of recovery. My own brother-in-law was given 6 months to live when diagnosed with cancer. He lived for another six years, sound in mind, spirit, and almost in the end, in body. Should he have come under the control of the Hospital after the six months and have been put on The Path?? I don't believe that our Medical Staff have God-like powers and are right in everything they do, far from it. Such decisions such as withdrawing medical aid, food and drinks to end the life of a patient should only be taken by the patient and/or family. Without getting too 1984 it is not of far a distance from The Path being initiated today by Medical staff withoit the prior permission of the patient and/or family, which like it or not is a form of State Euthanasia, although not formally recognised by the State who are turning a blind eye, to a recognised formal State Euthanasia being practised for whatever reason as stand practise without the permission of the patient and/or family. That's the vital point. a method of euthanasia, called The Practice, is being practiced by our Medical Service and staff without the permission of the people concerned. There are frequent stories in the News about medical errors of all sorts. We know that if we want a good chance of catching a deadly infection all we have to do is stay in a hospital. We know people have been mis-diagnosed with health problems, been given the wrong medication, had the wrong operation. Diagnoses, medical treatment etc are not absolute, and there is nothing certain, and letting Medical staff terminate life without proper control is dangerous to anyone who comes under their care. Daisees post underlines what chances are given to someone and how that someone disproves the diagnoses.
Sorry Daisees, I obviously mis-interpreted your motive/meaning behind the "just a thought" thread, which showed, to me, a negative diagnosis of the boy's recovery and how he has recovered with great success. My point was that diagnosis and predictions by Doctors and Medical staff aren't always right and when taking decisions to withdraw medical attention, sustenance and the like from a "dying patient" the patient's family should be asked for permission, instead of the current practice of putting people on The Path without even telling the family. Don't get me wrong, I really do have the greatest respect for Medical people. But in our Hospitals there are practices that don't necessarily serve the patient but rather serve the Hospital., and I believe that using The Path in an arbitrary way is one of those practices. Like it or not, whether a blind eye by authorities is being turned on the matter, The Path is a form of euthanasia being used without the permission of the patient and/or his/her family. As I said before, this is an emotive subject to all concerned patient, family and medical staff and I regret if I have offended anyone by calling their attention to the way The Path is used by Hospitals. Again, Daisees, I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted your motive/meaning behind the "Just a thought"thread.
It is very doubtful whether my father could have given consent in that state -had he been asked the question 6 months or 6 years before, I'm pretty sure what the answer would have been though. As a family, we weren't asked for permission and we were disturbed by the refusal to give hydration, particularly. Reluctantly, the hospital inserted nutrition tubes - he ripped them out. I would question whether families are always the best people to make the decision - what if we'd be keen to get our hands on the old boy's money, for example? I think there is a similar moral question about "keeping people alive" where without artificial support they would certainly die. I'm talking about people in extremis here, who can no longer eat or swallow, for example, and are unlikely to regain these faculties due to their illness or extreme old age. Invasive and distressing treatment to people in these groups has been largely stopped, and rightly so. I concede that withdrawing water is, for most people, at the far end of this continuum, though. So I can't really agree with Armandii's views. When a younger person is concerned, or there is any prospect of regaining any quality of life I believe medical staff would consult with the family about the course of treatment. By the way, when you refer to "The Path" or "The Practice", are these names that you've given these procedures or are they in the public domain at all? I am a lot more concerned about Ziggy Searchfield's story about his mother-in-law surviving similar withdrawal treatment. Maybe we should have taken our dad home, given him a nice cup of tea and hoped for the best? I'm even more concerned about Melinda and her relative - she's got a specific problem to solve, we don't even know how old or how poorly her relative is and suddenly the thread is all about euthanasia. If it's any comfort, I've heard stories from friends about very elderly relatives being hospitalised in total confusion and collapse only to make a reasonable recovery and able to get back home again. So, let's hope for the best.
Sorry, Madahhlia, it was I who high-lighted the practice of withdrawing medical care for patients. I did that as a further example of what can be wrong in the medical service. Again, I recognise that this is a emotive subject generally and we all have our different views on it. When my brother-in-law had his medical care withdrawn, he was sound of mind and wouldn't have agreed to it. He was told for several days that the reason why things had been withdrawn was because the medical staff were "reassessing" his medical needs. The title "The Path" was the term used by the Staff Nurse and Doctors when confronted by my sister. Again, Madahhlia , I apologize to you if I have in any way offended you. You're right, of course, the Thread is about Melinda's problems and I'm glad she has received such good advice from other members.
No worries, I certainly did more than my share in derailing the thread. Wonder how Melinda's getting on?
