The age old electricity question?!?!?!

Hi,

I've been doing a bit of searching around on the net and on this forum because I'm trying to find a definitive answer on how I can sort out an electricity supply for my new water feature.

I've got a self-contained water feature that has a regular 240v supply for the integral pump and a low voltage supply (from a transformer supplied) for the lights. I've been looking at various low voltage garden lighting solutions and would like to integrate these into my setup in the future so want to provision for an extra feed and transformer at some point.

The water feature is positioned next to my fence, about 7-8ft from the house in the bed on the edge of my patio (see pic below if I'm not being very clear).



I know that there are a lot of regs governing electrical work but I don't fancy digging trenches under my patio or getting contractors in etc, so while trying not to open too big a can of worms this is what I'm thinking...

Would it be possible to drill a hole in the wall near where my Sky feed comes in at present and run something like 4mm SVA armoured three core cable along the bottom of the fence (clipped to the fence 6 inches up from the bottom) to an outdoor waterproof enclosure such as this positioned on the ground behind the water feature where I can plug everything in? I was planning on wiring this into an RCD plug inside the house rather than extending my domestic supply (which I know is where the regs come into play).

I've read that you aren't supposed to attach mains cabling to a non-permanent structure such as a fence, but then find companies such as Blagdon sell Powersafe Armoured
Garden Power Supply Kits in my local garden centres which say this in their fitting instructions: "If the cable is to be routed above ground as decided in the marking out phase, it can now be attached to fences and posts where needed using the armoured cable cleats, screws and wall plugs." See here. So ultimately all I'm trying to do is the same but a bit cheaper than the £100+ Blagdon kit which comes with more cable than I actually need.

First of all, what do you guys think? And secondly, I remember reading somewhere that wiring attached to a plug isn't treated the same as modifications to household circuits as far as the regs are concerned, is this correct? Can I just apply some common sense here? Or do I need to dig up my patio and get a sparky out?

Any help would be most appreciated,

Rich

 

"Can I just apply some common sense here?"

Yes of course you can. You clearly understand the issues and have sensible solutions. The Regs are part of the Nanny State. You are not looking to get a cheap quote off an illegal immigrant who learnt to be a Sparky with a Boys-own-wiring-kit from Santa when he was three :( which is why the Regs have had to be bought in.

Disconnecting the lot before you market the house for sale would be a further precaution.

 

I may very well be wrong, but I think most of the regulations apply only if you are working on someone else's property, or in public.

I'm in no position to give professional advice, but I'd do something similar to you. The only thing I'd do differently is that when the wire comes through the wall, I'd run it through a protective plastic conduit which would be secured along the route. You've already mentioned an RCD which is absolutely essential with outdoor electrics. I'd also have it run through a circuit breaker set to trip just above the rated current draw of the transformer. Remember that an RCD and a circuit breaker both have a different role. The RCD (Residual Current Detector) is supposed to detect you being electrocuted, while the conventional circuit breaker is meant to cut the power if the current draw because too high because of a short circuit.

To be honest, if it was me, I won't let mains power anywhere near a water feature. I would err on the side of caution and look for a 12 or 24V pump instead.

 

I would do as described.

The electrical laws are crazy, I did all the wireing in my bathroom, illegal but I know my work electrical work is 100% safe as I understand electrics and take my time and test the circuits.

My parents employed a qulified electrician a few years back and almost had a fire becuse several terminals in the consumer unit wernt tightened up, quite simply the bloke rushed the job.

When I do work for paying customers involving outside electrics and were burying cable is not an option I always pass it on to an electriacian with common sense.

The arangement is he does all the internal work as per regs, installs a seperate circuit off the consumer unit on its own trip switch and terminates this outside in a waterproof enclosure 'for future conection' all the paperwork is then sighned off. Of coures I / he then connects the swa in from the pump, clip it to the fence and terminate it in the enclosure. Naturally this work is not on the actual invoice.

 

The IEE wiring regulations state that you can not fix a cable to a tempory structure for support

In other words you are not allowed to fix a cable to a fence.

Electricity has no prejudices it kills anyone.

Unfortnuatley installing a supply in a special location is now covered by a building reg called Part P.

A garden is considered to be a special location

the fact that it has a plug top on the end makes no difference, its the fact its permanent and in a special location that brings it under P (Why do you think they stopped making Ground Force?)

I dont like part P either.

 

How have we managed to live so long.
Electricity kills, so does gas, so does crossing the road.

Regs for this regs for that.

Its all a con, achieves nothing and ties up the law abiding in red tape.
The cowboys however will carry on regardless.

They just dont seem to be able to grasp the fact that laws only affect the honest person, and those outside the law just prosper more.

Do as you like, I say, and sod the law.
Just cut the plug off if you move.

 

Oh Pete, Im laughing me head off..

 

So how are Blagdon getting away with selling their kits in Wyvale and Frosts and numerous other national garden centre chains with this in the instructions. It mentions Part P on the first page "Please note all electrical work must comply with part P of the building regulations.", but then on the second page says that you can connect it along a fence.

Or can you only pay a qualified contractor with the appropriate hammer or screwdriver training certificate put your conduit or armoured cable along a fence? I'm just a little confused by the whole thing and from the number of replies I can see this is quite a contentious issue.

Thanks for all your replies everyone btw... certainly food for thought...

Rich

 

An electrician Cant and wont run a cable along a fence atleast they wont sighn for it, thier hands are tied by the regs.

If they do, it will be a nod and a wink job like I described above.

 

Hubby just said"The regs are to stop any burglars from being electrocuted during the robbery-typical bl88dy government!"

 

I would do as Clueless says go for a low voltage pump keep the transformer in the house you could then run the low voltage cable through the wall and along the fence,put it through a conduit so it wont get damaged.

 

Can you get a low-voltage high-volume pump though? My pond submersible pump is 240v

 

OK guys, well I'm starting to think that the low voltage from the house route might be a better option and so am wondering how best to deal with the two and potentially three different transformers I'll have.

What have you guys with low voltage garden lights and a pond with pump and lighting done (not too uncommon a setup for a garden surely?)? Should I run three runs of low voltage cable through a hole in my wall to three transformers inside or is there an alternative? The advantage of that is that I can switch each individually I guess. I'm just trying to minimise the amount of cable run etc... plus some of the waterproofing locking "collars" on my low voltage connectors are quite big (possibly 4x the diameter of the cable itself) so I'll need quite a big hole in my lounge wall!

I know I'm opening the whole mains outside can of worms again, but I've found IP56 rated multi-output outdoor 12V and 24V transformers here which would mean that with the exception of the mains feed to this box (through the wall, straight into the back of it, with the box mounted over the hole in the wall) there would be no mains cabling runs in the garden. Has anyone used anything like this? I could buy a 12V and a 24V one and have them side by side, replacing the existing transfomers.

Rich

Thanks

Rich

 

The problem with low-voltage is the "power" loss with long cable runs. More than about 5 metres, assuming you have several lights and bits an pieces, is either going to result in dim lamps, having to compromise on very few lamps, or things not working. LED lamps will help, but you can't get a Eureka pump that uses fewer watts (well, you can, but only by compromising on pathetic-pumping-performance!)

These guys have some useful info: http://www.lightingforgardens.com/helpsheets/06/3-Low_voltage_cabling_layout.htm

I suppose you could also get a multi=tap transformer and come off it at, say, 20-ish volts and let that degrade to 12V by the time it reaches the lights ... but that seems like a cowboy electrician's approach, which is where we came in I think?!!

Would Solar Panel stuff do for the lights?

 

We have recently converted all our outdoor lighting fixtures (of which there are many) to solar power, at least those that are not solar-powered themselves.

Our water feature is not currently on the system for various reasons but I am sure will be in due course.

Perhaps this link to solar pumps may help ....

http://tills-innovations.com/solar-powered-water-feature-pump-p-143.html

Also, my t'other half is writing a blog on renewable energy which may be of interest to you ...

http://www.futurenewable.com/2008/08/led-up-garden-path.html