The Met need their backside kicked for this one!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Feb 8, 2017.

  1. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    At 0430hrs this morning, there was a fatal RTC on the A316 southbound near junction 1 of the M3. The RTC involved an Audi TT which was being chased by police, and a truck which was apparently parked in a layby on the side of the A316. The image below shows this layby:

    k3.png

    So, this for this mornings rush hour, the road was closed (quite understandable), and for a time it was actually closed in both directions to prevent any rubber-necking etc (again quite understandable) until such times as suitable screens were erected at which point two of the three lanes northbound were re-opened.

    However, what I (and doubtless many others) cannot understand is the way that the road closures have been put in. This map shows where the incident is (red circle), the most logical and shortest diversion route for traffic (blue line) and the black lines and crosses represent the actual closures that have been put in.

    k1.png

    These closures forced traffic wanting the M3, Ashford or Sunbury all the way through Hampton and past Kempton to get back to Sunbury Cross. The map below shows that route marked with a green line, with the simpler diversion shown in blue.

    K2.png

    The net result of there being numerous points along the A316 closed so far back is that traffic was displaced into roads the either side of the A316 with Sunbury, Ashford, Feltham, Hanworth, Whitton, Hounslow, Hampton, Teddington and Twickenham all saturated with traffic - even Kingston was stuffed. Had the simpler diversion been used, this would have restricted the disruption to Ashford & Sunbury, instead of grinding a vast swathe of SW London to a halt.

    Worse still, as I type, all of these closures remain in place some 16 hours after the event. Some newspaper images here.

    Based on the limited information in the public domain, it seems fairly clear to me that the individual in the car was up to no good (at the least, failing to stop is an offence, but there is clearly more to it than that); I think it is fair to say that the pursuit speed could be described as low level flight, given that the road is pretty much a motorway. I also think it fair to assume (knowing the road also) that the car has 'lost it' after coming off the flyover and ended up smashing into the back of the parked lorry - - going by the images, it would also be a fair guess that death would have been instant.

    Now, I understand the need to investigate fatal incidents properly, particularly so when the police are involved - - but 16 hours??? I have seen a number of fatal incidents over the years, many of which on this same road, but never have I seen it take 16 hours to gather sufficient evidence (which, lets face it will consist of measurements, photographs and the viewing of CCTV footage from the police car); five maybe six hours is about the most I have ever seen, and I cannot for the life of me get my head around why it has taken so long for this particular incident.

    So, whoever it was in the Met that decided on these road closures today - well done, you have properly screwed the area for miles and miles around. And as for vehicle emissions and air quality that we keep getting brow beaten about - - the result of the over-zealous and prolonged closures being in place has saw massively increased air pollution, for what real reason? Covering police backsides is the only reason I can think of.
     
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    • Fat Controller

      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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      Road is finally re-opened.
       
    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      The police are a law unto themselves, they ALWAYS do their damndest to create chaos wherever they go.
       
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      • Sheal

        Sheal Total Gardener

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        Were there possibly freight restrictions on the shorter route FC which would prevent them from using that road?
         
      • daitheplant

        daitheplant Total Gardener

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        Apparently in Newport this morning 300 police raided 4 addresses, and arrested 20 people, in drug raids.
         
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        • CanadianLori

          CanadianLori Total Gardener

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          It is the same here. You'd think having todays digital cameras and other recording tools, it would take less time than in the old days.

          Over here I think the coppers pad up the hours to get overtime and the bosses look the other way because the extra costs are charged to the insurance company who then jack up our premiums..... or something like that :scratch:
           
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          • clueless1

            clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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            In a rare moment where I defend plod, I know a tiny bit about what goes on following a serious accident because of a previous employment.

            Most coppers are simply not qualified to do a proper accident investigation. The coppers that closed the road and sealed off the scene will have been focused on nothing more than protecting the scene, while keeping traffic flowing around it.

            A much rarer individual is the accident investigator. There are not many of them, and they generally are not routinely out on patrol. The regular plod must protect the scene, then they are powerless other than to wait.

            The accident investigators themselves may be held up. In the case of a fatality, they can't do anything until the coroner has finished.

            The accident investigator(s) then get to work. They will take photos as part of their evidence gathering, but photos alone won't do. They measure stuff meticulously, look at angles of impact, distribution of debris, the conditions of the road surface, and many factors that could easily be missed from photos alone.

            When the investigator has finished at the scene, then someone has to clean up. Wrecked vehicles have to be taken away, and large debris must be cleared, all before the road can finally be reopened.
             
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            • Fat Controller

              Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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              None, in fact the shorter diversion is MORE suited to large vehicles than the roads they were getting pushed onto. Don't get me wrong, you are not going to have an event of this magnitude without disruption, but for it to be pushed so far out from the scene makes absolutely no sense at all. And it wasn't as though it was the 'usual' type of closure where there is a police car across a slip road and a couple of coppers turning traffic away - - oh no, these closures were fully coned (four inches apart), taped and with big road closed signs and then the coppers turning traffic away.

              Worse still, if they had closed it at the shorter diversion point, then the only traffic that would have been diverted off would have been the traffic for the M3 - - the way they did it, traffic for all sorts of areas at either side of the A316 had to weave through various road closures and hellish congestion.

              k4.png

              The blue line represents my usual journey (about 30 mins), the red the route that I took this evening (bearing in mind that I made use of my local knowledge to use as many wee back-doubles as I could) - two hours. I was glad that I decided to get on the north side of the 316 early on, as I had seen what the south side looked like earlier on, and it was much worse - nose to tail traffic and delay times into hours rather than minutes.
               
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              • Fat Controller

                Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                I also have a fair understanding of what plod does, thanks to my job, and I have dealt with the traffic boys and the accident investigators on numerous occasions - - hell, I even assisted them when they decided to drag a motorcycle along behind a vehicle to measure the speed required for it to slide they way it did - hence, I do understand that there needs to be closures, for hours, to gather all the relevant information. But, the two factors here remain that they really made a balls up of the closures - absolutely no need for them to be that far back, and the time taken was just stupid. If the scroat in the Audi had slammed into the back of the lorry without a police car behind him, then that road would have been open by lunchtime.
                 
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                • JWK

                  JWK Gardener Staff Member

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                  My nephew is a Met officer and to be frank they have to deal with such awful situations/people, particularly in London, that it hardens them up to the extent they can't empathise with the public. He never talks about what he sees, maybe it's the only way to deal with it, to shut it out completely so he can lead a normal family life. He isn't in the Traffic unit any more so I can't blame him for yesterdays debacle, but he's the first to say most of his colleagues are not the brightest sparks when it comes down to common sense. He is usually in the thick of any bad incidents and it's the first thing that crosses our minds when there is a bomb scare or worse.

                  It's the same in Surrey though FC, we had total chaos recently when the police closed the the A3 for several hours - it has such a massive knock on effect to all surrounding roads.

                  The trouble is all roads are at full capacity in the South East, so any alternative routes get clogged up when a closure occurs.
                   
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                  • Loofah

                    Loofah Admin Staff Member

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                    If it was your relatives in a crash, wouldn't you want a thorough investigation? I would.
                     
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                    • daitheplant

                      daitheplant Total Gardener

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                      One of our allotment members is a retired RTA investigator, but he never discusses his job except to say he has seen things he would rather not have. You have to remember the crash site is treated as a crime scene so must be closed for as long as it takes to do the job properly.
                       
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                      • pete

                        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                        I've seen non lethal crash sites and there is still no urgency to get things moving.

                        I was at one a few months ago where there had been a collision on a narrow road combined with a T junction and a bend.
                        Those concerned had got all their vehicles off the road, but someone must have called the police.
                        They went about stopping traffic in all directions, then they walked back down the road in each direction with the usual POLICE ACCIDENT signs.

                        Then a lot of talking went on, one woman was so fed up she decided to try to drive by, but was told to go back, bearing in mind the road was actually clear apart from two police cars blocking it parked on the bend.

                        Then one copper wandered around sprinkling sand on the road, but there was no urgency, any day will do, appeared to be the attitude.

                        Eventually they allowed the traffic to start moving again, but following a police car in each direction, we then all came to an abrupt halt after a few hundred yards, while the copper got out to retrieve his POLICE ACCIDENT sign.
                        Yes in this case the police were the biggest part of the accident.:biggrin:
                         
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                        • Fat Controller

                          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                          Of course I would, but I still do not believe that it takes 16 hours for that to happen. I have been to some nasty, nasty accidents that I too would much rather never discuss, and I have never known a fatal accident take that long to clear. Moreover, I do not understand why the decision was made to cause such widespread disruption rather than screw up only the immediate surrounds - it was almost as though it was designed to cause the most possible disruption just to prove they were investigating something.
                           
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                          • Jiffy

                            Jiffy The Match is on Fire

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                            Not a RTA but a rail bridge that has to be replaced not too far away, but the diversion is 50 miles to go around :snorky: the rat runs are so busy and single track roads that angry motor drivers are now very comman :biggrin: and you should see the bule faces:)
                            The replacement of the bridge will take 10 days :snorky: but it was dew to be done last sept but the planning wasn't up too standerd as usuall :rolleyespink:
                             
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