Brexit - am I stupid or what?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by PeterS, Dec 16, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ARMANDII

    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2019
    Messages:
    48,096
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +100,834
    Not true, I'm afraid, Mike. in Portugal there was a coup d'etat attempt, the Romanian Revolution in 89, 1988 - 1994 NgornopKarabakh War, 1981 Spanish coup d'etat attempt, the ten day war in Slovenia '891, Kosovo2004 -2008, I could go on, but I need a mug of tea. Hopefully, global wars are a thing of the past, but in Europe and the rest of the world we still fight and kill.:dunno::doh:
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • longk

      longk Total Gardener

      Joined:
      Nov 24, 2011
      Messages:
      11,381
      Location:
      Oxfordshire
      Ratings:
      +23,089
      I agree that the SNP is looking to make hay from this mess. However, the indisputible fact is that in a referendum it is the people who decide. They may be swayed by lies by the great and the good (elected and unelected) but at the end of the day it is up to the people.

      Sorry to be Mr. Doom and Gloom but I agree that the UK will be worse off. Sadly, it is not just me either. Last week I went for lunch with a client who holds a senior position in the world of corporate finance. He was down to look at the progress on an old Merc that I'm recommisioning for him and we decided to do lunch as this week he has relocated to Frankfurt. Big business is less concerned about the prospect of tariffs than we may like to think - their reasoning is that a] they'll all be operating on the same level field tariff wise and b] that post Brexit the importance of the UK market will decline significantly.

      These are not fake news...............

      Toyota says hard Brexit would halt UK plant as BMW warns over Mini

      Will Nissan stay once Britain leaves? How one factory explains the Brexit business dilemma

      Sorry.
       
    • Mike Allen

      Mike Allen Total Gardener

      Joined:
      Jan 4, 2014
      Messages:
      2,861
      Gender:
      Male
      Occupation:
      Retired. Plant Pathologist.
      Location:
      Eltham. SE. London
      Ratings:
      +6,097
      Sorry my friend but I was implying the UK Vs Germany etc.
       
      • Friendly Friendly x 1
        Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
      • longk

        longk Total Gardener

        Joined:
        Nov 24, 2011
        Messages:
        11,381
        Location:
        Oxfordshire
        Ratings:
        +23,089
        He did say since the start of the EU we have been war free in Europe

        the 1920's is pushing it a bit! The soft/bloodless revolution in Portugal took place in the '70's, before Portugal became a member.

        Again, that's pushing it! Azerbyjan isn't even in the EU and never has been!

        I seem to recall that was the overthrow of the communist regime and as a result a break from the Soviet bloc. Long before Romania became a European state.

        Nothing more than a hissy fit by a few military members that lasted a few hours and saw nobody killed. Spain joined Europe in the later 1980's as I recall.

        A battle of independence that saw less than 100 people killed and at least ten years before Slovenian assesion to the EU.

        You may sort of have me here. As far as I recall the Kosovan War was in the mid to late '90's. Either way, Kosovo is not a member of the EU and never has been.
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • Scrungee

          Scrungee Well known for it

          Joined:
          Dec 5, 2010
          Messages:
          16,524
          Location:
          Central England on heavy clay soil
          Ratings:
          +28,996
          Or is that because virtually all EU members are also in NATO?
           
        • Scrungee

          Scrungee Well known for it

          Joined:
          Dec 5, 2010
          Messages:
          16,524
          Location:
          Central England on heavy clay soil
          Ratings:
          +28,996
          Mmmmm, I think my goose is almost cooked.

          may goose.png
           
          • Funny Funny x 2
          • noisette47

            noisette47 Total Gardener

            Joined:
            Jan 25, 2013
            Messages:
            5,865
            Gender:
            Female
            Location:
            Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitaine
            Ratings:
            +13,967
            I've kept out of this discussion for obvious reasons :) But it has to be said....there are literally millions of people whose lives will simply be destroyed by this fiasco, whether they be young, working Europeans in the UK, Brit retirees living in EU countries, students who will no longer have the right to study, work and travel freely, employees of UK Companies who choose to re-locate....I could go on. The saddest part is that the promised 'benefits' of withdrawal from the EU, the much-publicised extra money for services, control of immigration etc, major factors in many peoples' votes, were almost instantly 'qualified' or admitted to be unachievable so soon after the result. I wonder just how many younger people in the UK will feel that a long-term gain, should it ever materialise, will compensate them for the current upheaval and ????? years of struggle?
            I hope you're right, Armandii, I truly do, that England at least will pull through this to go from strength to strength. But I don't believe it. Only time will tell. Wouldn't it be fascinating to get a glimpse of a 2118 history 'book' :)
             
            • Friendly Friendly x 3
            • noisette47

              noisette47 Total Gardener

              Joined:
              Jan 25, 2013
              Messages:
              5,865
              Gender:
              Female
              Location:
              Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitaine
              Ratings:
              +13,967
               
              • Like Like x 1
              • pete

                pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

                Joined:
                Jan 9, 2005
                Messages:
                47,724
                Gender:
                Male
                Occupation:
                Retired
                Location:
                Mid Kent
                Ratings:
                +84,392
                No, I think you missed my point, what I'm saying is, why cant the rest of the UK leave the customs union, put a border in the Irish Sea, and then negotiate to get N. Ireland out of the customs union at a later date, but only if that is what they want.

                I really cant see why we have to remain in the customs union because N.I. has a problem with its border, other than it is, the DUP, who wont like the idea, and May needs their support in Parliament due to the fact the stupid PM, decided to call a general election and then not bothering to fight it.
                Tell me she is handling this well, I really dont think so, but cant think of anyone else.

                On another note, there was lots of doom, brimstone and fire spoke about by the remain side during the run up to the referendum, none of it has happened yet, but they led us to believe it would all happen as soon as article 50 was invoked.

                Both sides came out with an awful lot of lies, and as to whether we will be better off out rather than in needs to be seen yet.
                But the only thing I can say is while this country still contains those in high places trying to overturn the result yes we will be worse off.
                And they will be responsible.
                 
                • Like Like x 1
                • Agree Agree x 1
                • Friendly Friendly x 1
                • ARMANDII

                  ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

                  Joined:
                  Jan 12, 2019
                  Messages:
                  48,096
                  Gender:
                  Male
                  Ratings:
                  +100,834
                  Hi noisette, if I thought for one second that the future of the UK would be as dire as you think and the EU has been threatening then I would never, ever, have voted to leave the EU.......but I don't:dunno::nonofinger::snorky: The UK has never been a happy partner in the EU for several reasons. One being
                  the fact that there only seems to be room for two EU members to lead the Union i.e. France and Germany with possibly Germany stronger than France.
                  Let me state, in all honesty, that I'm no rabid Nationalist or any kind of Nationalist. In fact, I'm always bemused by the fact that on this tiny island there are 3 Tribes, (with a subdivision of minor "tribes"), who generally believe that they are each"different" from the other "tribes. Those 3 major "tribes" genes are now so integrated that it takes detailed DNA analysis to define a person's genetic history. The same applies to Ireland where an artificial border has been created just because historically they think differently politically.
                  My job for the last 16 years has been as a Consultant to 5 Judges in the Crown Courts in the field of the Analysis of the Integration of European Legislation, and it's Causes and Effects (past and present) on the UK'S Judicial System. I retired on the 31 August this year, but I'm still on a retainer and give advice via Video Conference when needed.
                  From my experience, and point of view, the UK has slowly but surely lost nearly all authority in high level legal decisions due to a steady tide of EU legislation which is/has entangled the UK in a web of laws designed to take away any real decisions in the UK while handing that power to an unelected organisation of Bureaucrats supposedly representing the 28 members in the EU. The EU has a stated agenda of becoming a Federation but unlike the USA where individual States have some influence, the members of the Federation will lose complete sovereignty and identity, all ability to make any laws or economic policies and be subservient to that unelected body of Bureaucrats, while becoming unable to leave or win any dispute due to EU economic debt markers that they have incurred.

                  I agree, but I think that very few people in the UK believe that would happen either. But there is a resentment of having to pay a massive amount in the EU's coffers and not having any say where that will go due to the fact that the UK is barred from EU economic meetings and decisions due to retaining the Sterling as it's own currency.:wallbanging:

                  I think the saddest thing that the EU has managed to do is to undermine and take away the confidence of the UK population, young and old, of their own Country's ability to survive in the world of global trade. The EU was, supposedly, born to spread wealth and trade within it's members while ensuring that all countries were equal. Now there is a growing number of EU members seriously disturbed with the EU's management and a rise in Right Wing nationalists.
                   
                  • Like Like x 1
                    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2018
                  • ARMANDII

                    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

                    Joined:
                    Jan 12, 2019
                    Messages:
                    48,096
                    Gender:
                    Male
                    Ratings:
                    +100,834
                    Not really, longk, as I was referring to Europe has originally stated by Mike, although to be fair. Mike amended that to France and Germany........


                    .
                     
                    • Friendly Friendly x 1
                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

                      Joined:
                      Jan 12, 2019
                      Messages:
                      48,096
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Ratings:
                      +100,834


                      The easy answer is that it would, in effect, pete, separate Northern Ireland from the UK in all respects legally, financially, politically......which is not what the DUP or the UK Government want. It's also one of the major sticking points with the rest of the UK as, in the Chequers proposal, the EU won't agree to a leaving date for being in the Customs Union but want it to be indefinite.:doh:
                       
                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

                      Joined:
                      Jan 9, 2005
                      Messages:
                      47,724
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Occupation:
                      Retired
                      Location:
                      Mid Kent
                      Ratings:
                      +84,392
                      OK, so we crash out, no deal.
                      Is that what the EU want, because then surely there will have to be a border in N.I.
                       
                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

                      Joined:
                      Jan 12, 2019
                      Messages:
                      48,096
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Ratings:
                      +100,834
                      The term "Crash out" is not the term I would use, pete.:dunno: No deal, would mean we in the UK, or those in the EU would not have the ability to cross borders without checks, we would need new passports. tariffs would be put on goods to the EU and we would put exactly the same tariffs on EU good......which is pointless. Legally, we would still retain some EU legislation as some of it is good, but we wouldn't have to just buy "straight Bananas" instead of normal shaped fruit or veg. It's a bit more complex than that, but you get my gist.

                      The EU has always brought up the idea/solution of isolating NI from the UK by retaining it in the Customs Union with no finishing date as they have with the UK. Basically, they're not, at present, agreeing either to the UK or NI staying for a limited period within the Customs Union and they are insisting that if we do stay in the CustomS Union then it should be for an "indefinite" period thereby keeping the UK within the EU while being stripped of any political authority. Yes, you're right, if we have a hard BREXIT there will be hard borders in NI and the UK. I've never ever been able to read tea leaves, see anything in a crystal ball, or see the future but maybe, just maybe, sense will prevail and the EU will agree to a limited period of the UK being in the Customs Union.......but I think, even then, we will still not agree with the EU and there will eventually be a hard BREXIT:dunno::wallbanging:
                       
                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

                      Joined:
                      Jan 9, 2005
                      Messages:
                      47,724
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Occupation:
                      Retired
                      Location:
                      Mid Kent
                      Ratings:
                      +84,392
                      In that situation we are not leaving, that's basically what all the remainers wanted.
                      Leave the EU but remain in the Customs Union, continue paying the EU the money, have our hands tied regarding trading independently with the world.

                      Yep, that's how I thought it would end, due to our bungling politicians not coming up with a united front.
                      Worst of both worlds,
                      I really dont think it should be this difficult for any country to leave the EU?
                      It does seem like we have got involved with the Mafia, or worse.
                       
                      • Agree Agree x 2
                      Loading...
                      Thread Status:
                      Not open for further replies.

                      Share This Page

                      1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                        By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
                        Dismiss Notice