Brexit - am I stupid or what?

But he just did!!

 

Only if you assume gender...

 

To be honest, Simon, the ordinary people on the street have their opinions formed by the actions of both our Government and the EU over time along with their feelings regarding other matters possibly involving immigration, security of the borders, sovereignty, and legislation being raised by a foreign court that supersedes/overrides their own country's legal system.

Well, again, I don't think the Public, on reading the Lisbon Treaty and it's amendments, would be any the wiser, change their opinion, or be enlightened to any great degree. For the last 16 years it has been my job to interpret legislation by the EU, it's effect on UK Legislation, and give advice to 5 Crown Court Judges. I have to say that, in my experience, it is the UK that applies EU legislation more strictly than most of the other 27 countries. Treaties are a fine thing, expounding and generally defining the standards and behaviour, that all parties should rise to but, unfortunately, those concerned don't always honour or adhere to making the Treaty somewhat "thinner" in it's principles.

So would a lot of EU countries!! There are literally hundreds of committees and advisory boards on every trading and economical subject with the EU. There can be as many as over 20 levels of committees, organisations, etc that each directive has to pass through from, it's original point, to where a final decision is taken and by that time is possibly unrecognisable to the originator.

That would depend on the kind of deal the UK is finally subjected to, i.e: a restrictive trade deal having a great deal of influence on the UK while still subjecting it to the European Court of Justice's legislation overriding UK legislation, or a deal where the UK can make it's own rules and regulations, while taking into account, the EU and other countries outside the EU own regulations etc. So, not being a person who can forecast the future I can only say "all things are possible"

God, Simon, that depends on the source as there are so many papers that have been published by those economic/trading organisations biased to the EU or against it. What is out there is as divisive in opinion as you can find. There are no neutral papers on the subject giving you a completely fair, balanced, picture of the situation that hasn't, or wouldn't be, attacked by those on either side of the debate. So, you will have to accept, somewhat cynically, a resignation of realising that what is out there is.......

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

If you talked to the Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Polish, Spanish population, and some of the Eastern countries, you might not get a positive of the effect of the EU on their economies but, should you talk to the French and German people you would probably get a differently opposed opinion.

 

I really don't know why we're bothering with this thread . I've noticed that there are opposing voices and thoughts that are aired with not one iota of movement of opinion either way.

As a, thankfully retired, arbitrator I recognise a dead duck when I see one.

 

Actually, I'm not a BREXITEER, I have my own opinion, but I've tried to be neutral by not expressing it.

That is, historically, true, for most Nations and political organisations and "was always thus"

Actually, that is not true, longk, criminal law cases and home affairs can be taken on appeal to the European Courts of Justice should the plaintiff, after a conviction, wish to and, if successful, have a UK judgement over ruled. Home Affairs can again, under a lot of circumstance, can also be challenged in the European Courts of Justice by organisations wishing to disagree with policies etc. My job was to advise the Judges on the effects of European legislation on UK judgement in all areas and analyse what the risks were regarding appeals to the UK Supreme Courts and into the European Courts of Justice taking into account what decision the Crown Court Judges had decided regarding their judgements before they actually made them in the Courts. Since the UK became a full member of the EU many "agreements" have over the years slowly but surely encroached on the sovereign powers and independence of the UK law system. The EU passed legislation back in '99 and 2003 that, using the system of Appeals, all member countries court case decisions could/can be challenged on appeal and taken to the European Courts of Justice.

Perhaps I move in the wrong circles but all the people I meet, on either side of the "discussion", are adamant that they weren't influenced by the media/political campaigns before the Referendum. All of them appear to have made up their minds over the years one way or another before there was even a thought of a referendum.

Oh God, longk, and with all great respect, I have, over the years, be attacked, castigated, and remonstrated, insulted, by Barristers, Lawyers, CEOs, and certain MP's who were professionally savage in the art denigrating arguments, analysis, opinions and persons who they disliked or disagreed with......and I'm still around with my professional reputation intact and being retained by the Judges. You, my friend, again with the greatest respect, are an amateur when it comes to "at picking on me". In truth, whenever we have disagreed to any degree you've always put forward a logically, convincing, weighted argument and I've never ever regarded that as being picked on.

 

I agree to a point, Shiney, and I had ceased to take part in it, as the thread had reached a deadlock, as have the Politicians, but with the constantly changing political pressures, members are. while not wishing to change their views, are still grappling with the situation.

 

This is out of my area of expertise but I have memories of differences between countries in the EU. These differences are not in the laws themselves but in the interpretation and enforcement of them. A simple example of what used to happen (don't know whether it still does) is the legislation on unwrapped cheese in shops (I said it was a simple example). The EU law says that unwrapped cheese must be kept refrigerated. In the UK we enforced that strictly. In France they totally ignored it in the shops and the local authorities who were there to enforce those type of laws also ignored it. Some of my friends that live in France say that the government is happy to accept laws and then totally ignore enforcement of them.

Quite some years ago we were also enforcing the silly law that on all market stalls the price per kilo must be larger and above the price per pound. The was enforced quite severely with fines and one trader ending up in jail. It wasn't until he died, attributed to the pressure of the court cases and jail, that the government told local authorities not to enforce the law.

Rather extreme examples but they certainly coloured the views of a lot of people. I'm sure there must be more recent examples of the different attitudes of individual countries towards the legislation.

As I pointed out in post 751 (I think) there were also a lot of myths going around about ridiculous EU legislation. At the time nobody bothered to point out that they were myths and they have become legend.

I only tend to post on this thread when I think I know something about a point or to correct things if I know they're incorrect. I don't bother to get involved in one side of the argument or the other as I feel it would be wasting my time.

The only thing that really annoys me when I hear arguments (not on here) about older people shouldn't be able to influence the vote. Being a wrinkly I object most strongly to that point of view. We have experience and knowledge that is an important viewpoint on life. In most societies the elderly have been respected and listened to, still are in a lot of countries, but here in the UK we are thought, by a lot of younger people, to simply be old and doddery. Also, this silly argument about the young supporting us oldies doesn't seem to take into account the fact that when we were young we were paying into the exchequer to support our seniors, and ourselves, and that a lot of us possibly paid more than they do now (proportionately).

Then you have silly situations such as the Winter Fuel Payment. I don't need it so tried to refuse it and I know a lot of friends who also tried - a silly situation. So I just give it to charity each year.

Sorry, some of that was off topic!