Brexit - am I stupid or what?

I had always had a strong interest in the EU, but was not particularly knowledgeable and would identify myself as one of the people who does not understand it - but who honestly does? The EU is a supranational economic and political organization whose internal structures are vast, complex, and ever-changing - while the act of leaving the EU is by its nature subject to the changing circumstances of the times. I have never met a Remain supporter who "understands" the EU to any greater degree than most intelligent Leave voters I know, indeed when I mention issues such as tariffs, EU-Africa relations, and live animal transport, Remain supporters have often been stumped, or assumed I was joking or mistaken.
Another Ref may yield different results, but this not only due to voters' understandings having been widened - one fact often completely ignored in this debate nationally is that people can change our minds, even on matters of deep ideological importance to us, due to many factors such as life experience, or sometimes just a change of heart that can be difficult to pin down or explain. For instance, I have recently been reading a biographical account of William Wordsworth, and how his sympathies gradually shifted from Revolutionary Republican to those of the staunch establishment viewpoint, the sort of transition which - right or wrong in its self - is never credited nowadays. These days, if you have switched from being a Remainer to a Leaver you are scoffed at as a "traitor," while those switching the other way are referred to exclusively as having regretted their earlier decision. I don't believe its possible to regret something you genuinely believed was morally right at the time of doing it. This is why I have, to the evident chagrin of some on these pages, more respect for Nick Clegg than for many social media Remain proponents - unlike them, he does not stoop to personal insults, but says that he understands they have justified concerns but wishes to appeal to their better judgement or encourage a different way of looking at the issue.
In my view it is absolutely right that this issue should "drag on for many years." It took the UK 27 years to join the EEC, so there is no way the future relationship will be decided on overnight. If the issue is as important as people make it out to be, then it is right and proper that the subject should be subject to continual, excessive, scrutiny, and permanent discussion and debate. The public being bored by it is of no relevance - the substance of the matter is so significant that it will probably rightly, be a major element of our political discourse for many years to come, if not for the rest of time.

 

What I mean is, just as I believe its wrong for political parties to dismiss the grievances of Leavers as bigotry or a lack of understanding, it is wrong and counter-productive also for them to see those arguing for a second Ref as "snowflakes" or to ignore their plight. Presumably, most of us in this debate are on the same side - the side of wanting the best for this country and all people affected by the EU issue. As such, whether the eventual picture is of the UK leaving the EU, or not, we should be aiming for a future relationship in which the levels of disaffection are lower rather than higher.

 

Yep, I again agree with much of what you say, but I think we're living in unpredictable times and ideas which may once have been described as fanciful or unrealistic often seem to win the day. There are many alternatives to the ultra-Federalism you describe.

 

[QUOTE But if, as you say, there's an even bigger majority in the UK now who want out, then what's the problem with a further vote? It would be conclusive, wouldn't it? It would shut up once and for all those who want to make a decision based on currently available facts.[/QUOTE]

Although this question is directed at someone else, may I offer my thoughts?

I agree there should be no problem in principle with further votes. As I've said many times, now we have been taken down the Referendum route on such a big issue, it makes absolutely no sense to just ask once and then leave it at that.
But I disagree with your points about it being conclusive and "shutting up once and for all" any voices in the debate. I strongly believe that democracy is best served by a continuity of argument, and issues such as the relationships between groups of states can never, and should never, be "concluded" for perpetuity. I have been on both sides of the EU issue, and just as I would never demand that a party like Ukip, for example, whose politics are of course founded on Euroscepticism, should not be able to exist, so too do I support the rights of the Liberal Democrats, for whom European integration is a founding and integral value, to always advocate this idea. To expect otherwise is to expect people to campaign and vote in bad faith, and is corrosive to democracy.
Of course, I keep coming back in my mind over and over again to the fact that in the 2017 election, around 85% of voters backed Brexit parties - Conservatives or Labour - whose manifestos explicitly stated the wish to enact Brexit. Corbyn was even more emphatic about this during the campaign than the PM, and has sacked six members of his front bench for opposing his position, so there can be no complaints from anyone who voted Tory or Labour that we are headed for Brexit (even if their MP was, say, Anna Soubry or Owen Smith). In fact, the parties have had two leadership elections since the Ref, with Labour members having the chance to choose a pro-Remain candidate, but still they did not. However, even this should not preclude the option of another Referendum, as it remains our democratic right to hold such things whenever appropriate.

Despite the above, I feel deeply worried about the implications of another binary vote, though. An issue of this complexity should not be reduced to a simple yes or no question, and I think historians will look on this episode in future generations and be absolutely flabbergasted, not so much by the results (there is a general climate of Euroscepticism across the continent) but that it was decided n such a flimsy, trivial and utterly simplistic basis. Dividing the nation into two camps has caused chaos among families, friends and communities, which will take a generation to resolve. It beggars belief that we may be heading into that vortex again, and by the looks of it very soon.

 

Indeed, I have often found myself putting the points you raise to others - I am severely critical of the EU and deeply worried about some of its current tendencies. To be honest, I would say that I spend most of my time on this subject standing aside from my personal beliefs and trying to see it from the viewpoints of all the different sides (quite easy because I have no fundamental core belief on the EU issue, at least in terms of how I think it should be resolved).
One thing I do think is often ignored is that there is as much Nationalist-esque sentiment on the Remain side as the Leave - for example, the argument that "I identify as European, therefore we should be in the EU..." is one I take issue with. What if my heritage was Indian - would it follow that I would want a Federalist relationship between the UK and India? Its a flippant example but you can see my point - the jingoistic notions of the arch-Brexiteers who see their Britishness as key to their whole ideological compass on the issue is mirrored by that of many Remainers, who think that because they "feel European" (an ambiguous identity at the best of times) the rest of the country should follow suit. Nor does the EU its self enjoy any sort of moral purity - individuals like Tusk strike me as borderline sociopathic, and the institution often appears draconian and ineffective. But the current crop of EU leaders will not always be in post, and the whole political culture could change.
All that said, I still think that the impasse we are witnessing is due to unrealistic demands from the UK and intransigence from Brussels in equal measure.

But the EU is the largest trading block of its kind in the world, and for all that I do, in theory, support the pursuit of FTA's with non-EU countries, many of our global trading partners openly say they value our proximity to Brussels. My biggest fears are that a Hard Brexit will leave the UK without any real say in the future direction of this huge block, whose fortunes will have a direct effect on other parts of the world and on international security, and that we may lose important parity and influence on areas like the environment and counter-terrorism. And if, as some have said, there is a rise in far right figures winning Euro seats, we may be well placed to stick around in order to try and blunt their influence.

 

The new Cdu leader in Germany made her first speech today and near the top of her agenda is the creation of a European army !

Great so the UK wont be spending £40 Billions pounds a year defending Europe from those pesky Russians from now on.

Maybe we could put some of it towards funding the police,border force, and militarise the Coastguard so we can stop this country from sliding any further down the toilet ?

40 billion on nato saved,12 billion no longer going to europe saved, and stop foreign aid saving another 13 billion a year.

Thats 65 BILLIONS POUNDS A YEAR SAVINGS !!!

 

Gosh I feel nostalgic this evening. All this frantically typing away in order to try and get a reply in before the other person has added a further one - I've not done this since debating politics in the days of Myspace, more than ten years ago!

 

Blimey @SimonZ You suddenly have a lot to say for yourself considering your joined this forum in 2009 but have only made 460 posts over those nine years and I bet 459 of those posts have been in the last week. (Joke)

Do you have any questions about gardening you want answering?

 

Not to mention all the money saved by houses costing 35% less, staying at home instead of taking unaffordable European holidays and buying British cars instead of BMWs Vintage cars are going to boom!

 

I think you’ll find most already have

 

Sorry for the overload. Although it has become convention these days to make out that those expressing strong views on the EU which differ from our own must be devious or stupid, my own take is very different - I tend, on seeing that someone has spoken to condemn or support the EU on a public forum, to assume that the person must be expertly knowledgeable about the institution. In your post, you said you believed "millions of people" had voted out "for something they didn't understand." I took from this the inference that you presumably voted the opposite way, and felt you did understand the reasons why, and as such you must be a highly informed supporter of the EU as an institution and able to comment on some of the more in depth issues my questions raise - though to be honest they were directed at anyone with knowledge of the EU and not just one person.
My questions on this site usually relate to the biology of plants and their natural history, rather than practical gardening queries as such. I tend to learn practical things by doing them rather than them being explained. Despite (or perhaps because of) being a poet and writer, I struggle to condense my botanical ponderings into comprehensive questions, and often feel unsure that what I've written conveys my thoughts in full.

I would love to focus on gardening for the majority of my time. Before 2016 I considered the EU issue an interesting but tangential aspect of life, and despite a lifelong interest in politics, it did not intrude on my love of gardening (except, for example, when subjects such as ecology, agriculture or animal welfare arose in a political context). If only we could revert to a situation where the EU issue could be picked up for an interesting hypothetical chat, then dropped again in favour of pruning some bushes. Instead, it has come to dominate our lives. It has divided families, wrecked relationships, driven an enormous wedge into our society whereby people have become defined by their supposed allegiance to one side or the other (Leavers vs Remainers) which, considering it is possible to strongly favour some aspects of the EU while disdaining others, is absolutely ludicrous. Britain has become a tribal nation full of people who don't know what on earth is going on, but who all seem to know that they are right. The decision to hold a binary vote on something so complex has come close to destroying the fabric of our society.