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Clematis Suppliers and Type ?

Discussion in 'General Gardening Discussion' started by HarryS, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. Ned

    Ned Evaporated

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    I sent mail to Taylors, and have just had their reply.

    ''In all the tests we`ve done over the years, manure has rotted the roots and scorched the stems - so best to steer clear of it altogether (leave it for vegetables and roses, as they will benefit a lot more) ''
     
  2. Verdun

    Verdun Passionate gardener

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    Yes indeed, I have read that info Tetters :)
    If you read the planting guide from Thorncroft they mention manure and that it should be in the substrate layer. :) It is this info that was conveyed to me when I enquired on the phone about clematis varieties.
    More than ever I tend to use my own judgement and, maybe, common sense!
     
  3. ARMANDII

    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, Tetters, I wouldn't get too fixated by manure or enriched compost when it comes to Clematis. If you're going to plant a Clematis make sure you plant it at least a couple of inches, [I plant mine up to 6 inches deeper], deeper than the original level of pot compost, to help avoid Clematis Wilt, that the Clematis is in and keep it well watered for a week or two. It's well known that Clematis like their roots cool and moist and if you ensure that things will be fine.:coffee::snorky:
     
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    • Ned

      Ned Evaporated

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      They are all in deep Armandii, and well mulched up with slate chippings to protect the roots. I have also ensured they are well watered in their first few weeks. Now I`m hoping their heads are getting ready to find the sun. [​IMG]
      I contacted the growers as Redwing asked about the manure, to see what they say.
       
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      • Redwing

        Redwing Wild Gardener

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        Re manure: I asked because I use well rotted manure in potting mix. I have several clematis’ growing in large pots or troughs. Have had mostly good results although an alpina mysteriously died. I wonder if the ‘no manure ‘ advice refers to not well rotted. I assumed that as clematis are hungry feeders manure would be good for them.
         
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        • Verdun

          Verdun Passionate gardener

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          My feeling is much like Redwing's ...:)
          We are all "mere students" Tetters.
          I would have thought planting hungry feeders in poor soil that has only had fertiliser added would produce poor plants
          Personally I use dried manure...chicken pellets are essentially dried manure too.....a lot in the ground and in many containers:)
           
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          • HarryS

            HarryS Eternally Optimistic Gardener

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            So we are awaiting answer on why no manure should be used.
            I only use BFB in the bottom of planting holes for root development . I can't use anything "smelly" on top of the beds , otherwise Molly will dig it up .
            I always plant my Clematis 2-3 inches deeper than the pot level. Why does this help prevent clematis wilt ?
             
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            • Ned

              Ned Evaporated

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              No, we are not awaiting a reply - I have already passed on what Taylors have said about their advice. I am simply a messenger here - they are the experts.
               
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              • silu

                silu gardening easy...hmmm

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                Well for my penny's worth on the subject of manure or not re Clematis, I grow maybe 10 /15 different Clematis, mostly in beds but some in huge Whisky barrels. All have, over the years had loads of manure laid round the stems (not touching) as a mulch and I expect they had manure added at planting time too. No deaths to report and the only Clematis I have that periodically suffers from wilt is Marie Boisselot which is in the susceptible group unfortunately.
                While I would not count myself in any way an authority on the subject I can say that none of the Clematis I have grown over a period of say 35 years have had any ill effects whatsoever. If someone is idiot enough to hurl on very hot and smelly manure then they would be asking for trouble but manure when "ready" for the garden really has little or no smell at all.
                 
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                • Redwing

                  Redwing Wild Gardener

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                  Good discussion folks. I think I’ll continue to use well rotted cow manure on clems.
                   
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                    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
                  • noisette47

                    noisette47 Total Gardener

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                    Going back a bit, Christopher Lloyd was 'the' authority on Clematis (at least he said he was ;)). His soil at Dixter was claggy clay which Clematis hate, so it was always improved with manure and grit before planting them. He recommended blood, fish and bone as a gentle, slow release fertiliser, as manure is very variable in nutrient quantity. I did/do as the Master said and all my Clematis seem to do well, apart from two of the same variety from Taylors which pegged it within a month of planting, never to re-appear :scratch:.
                     
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                    • Verdun

                      Verdun Passionate gardener

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                      Me too :) Christopher Lloyd knew a thing or two :)
                      (Well incorporated throughout the soil though)
                       
                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                      Yep, I think the advice to not to use manure refers to fresh manure rather than well rotted manure as the former can be a bit "harsh". I'm not sure, in my experience, if Clematis are "hungry" plants although they do appreciate a bit of TLC. I have around 25-30 Clematis of, differing varieties, planted closely along the 4' long sides of the Trellis Entrance to the garden, making around 60 plants altogether. I admit they do get the occasional dose, when I remember:dunno::doh:, of Tomato Feed but that is it. They flower their "heads off" despite being closely planted, being planted in my sandy "hungry" soil, and the only occasional feed.
                      I have a C. Armandii that is planted against the trunk of an Acer Brilliantissimum and has been there for "many Moons" and yet, despite the competition from the roots of the Acer, Ferns, and Hellebores around it has draped itself happily among the boughs of the tree.........and that has never been fed. Having said that, it's not to say that I didn't lose some Clematis, in the early years, when learning what Clematis will suffer in the hands of an inexperienced/experienced gardener:wallbanging::heehee: I think that our different experiences are due to the various micro-climates of our gardens, how we planted it and looked after during the early weeks and, of course, Luck!!:coffee::snorky:
                       
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                      • ARMANDII

                        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                        What is clematis wilt?



                        Clematis wilt is a disease of clematis caused by the fungus Calophoma clematidina (syn Phoma clematidina, Ascochyta clematidina). Many of the large-flowered hybrid cultivars are very susceptible, but the smaller flowered species appear to be much more resistant.

                        Wilting has long been recognised as a serious problem in clematis. Although it is known that Calophoma clematidina causes clematis wilt, there are many cases of wilting recorded where the fungus is not present. Research has clarified two important points:

                        1. Wilting in large-flowered hybrid cultivars may be caused by Calophoma clematidina, in which case it should be possible to find some of the symptoms described below
                        2. Wilting in resistant hybrids and species clematis is very unlikely to be C. clematidina, and is probably caused by environmental problems
                        So, although wilting in clematis plants is often blamed on the fungal infection, unless it affects one of the more susceptible large-flowered hybrids it is most likely to be caused by environmental problems.

                        Clematis is a plant which, in the natural environment, prefers a deep and fertile soil in a moist and shaded habitat. However, in gardens, clematis are often planted in shallow dry soils in exposed sites, often close to buildings. In such circumstances they suffer from root stress which contributes to poor growth and what is loosely described as wilt. Overall, infection by C. clematidina is a problem for the nursery trade and specialist growers, but relatively uncommon in gardens.



                        Symptoms


                        The symptoms of fungal infection and environmental stress can be similar. The following symptoms are associated with fungal infection:

                        • When fungal infection occurs through the leaves, these wilt and the leaf stalks turn black. Leaf infection is followed by rapid wilting of the stems
                        • Fungal infection can also occur through stems. Freshly affected stems show black discolouration of tissue when split open
                        • Young healthy shoots may be produced from the base of affected stems, sometimes from below ground


                        Control


                        Non-chemical control
                        • Try to create a suitable root environment by deep cultivation and mulching, to minimise root stress
                        • If fungal infection is suspected, cut out all wilted stems back to healthy (non-stained) tissue and promptly destroy the affected material to prevent it contaminating the soil. New healthy shoots may be formed at ground level
                        • Disinfect pruning tools to prevent spread of spores and avoid transferring infected plant and soil material to a new area
                        • Particularly susceptible cultivars include: Clematis ‘Henryi’, ‘Vyvyan Pennell’, ‘Mrs N. Thompson’, ‘Duchess of Edinburgh’, ‘William Kennett’, ‘Marie Boisselot/Madame le Coultre’, ‘Ernest Markham’. Clematis 'Comtesse de Bouchaud'; C. 'Jackmanii' and C. 'Nelly Moser' are also susceptible
                        • Resistant cultivars and species include: Clematis ‘Avant Garde’, ‘Bonanza’, ‘Confetti’, C. alpina, C. montana, C. orientalis, C. viticella (which is tolerant rather than resistant), C. integrifolia, C. macropetala, C. tangutica
                        Chemical control
                        There are no chemicals available to treat clematis wilt.



                        Biology


                        Calophoma clematidina can survive in the soil on dead plant material and organic matter. Infection occurs when spores are splashed or otherwise carried to leaves or young stems. Infection spreads rapidly to the shoots and stems, which when split open, are stained black. Infection causes rapid wilting and death. The root system is often not killed and young shoots frequently regenerate from or below ground level. The disease is not immediately fatal, but susceptible cultivars will usually die eventually.






                        Clematis
                        Clematis: green petal
                        Clematis: pruning
                         
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                        • HarryS

                          HarryS Eternally Optimistic Gardener

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                          Taylors clematis arrived today , after a Tuesday order . Very well packed , and all plants look in good condition. I even had two baby snail delivered !
                          I'l plant the Montana and Bourbon in my back garden tomorrow, after a good soak. The Miss Bateman and Esther are for the caravan on Sunday. I'll use my normal mix of MPC + TopSoil + Sharp sand with some BF & B at the bottom of the planting hole . I have two packs of Taylors slow release Clematis food to add now and in spring , only £1 a small bag . Not sure what make of slow release pellets they are .

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