Electric cars.

I think that the only route open is a "usage charge" - per mile / whatever. That opens some avenues - such as "Cheaper off peak" and thereby shift some usage to off-peak and by that means help reduce peak congestion - a cheaper alternative to more shiny-shiny new roads ...

But, yeah, the roads need to be repaired and money is needed.

There is a balance for Government to get EV adoption (or public transport and get rid of the car altogether ... <Pls start a new topic!!>), and they are going to have to do something, short term, to encourage them. Mean time early adopters get the benefit, but by the time "road tax" is needed tomorrow's EVs will be cheaper to buy and more efficient - much like PV panels and FITs before them ... now PV is more-or-less cost effective on its own, without subsidy.

For example: My car gets charged from my roof, when the sun is shining well and the car is parked there (during the day, natch! My PV panels are shitte on Moonlight ...). I think "too difficult" to meter that, but a mileage-usage-tax could at its simplest be "Charged at MOT" and ownership-transfer, and some means of catching the first few pre-MOT years. That would also favour ICE users - light users pay less.

You are, absolutely and without question, on a roll FC

On the last point Tesla take a non-standard view. Tesla think that Dealers are a bad idea. A basis for that presumption is that Dealers will not promote EVs (over ICE) because there is no on-value from regular service. Electric Motor doesn't need new oil, spark plugs, a really expensive timing belt change, and so on. With regenerative braking the brake pads are going to be good for 150,000 miles. VW have fitted (some modern equivalent of) "drum brakes" at the back, because they get used so little that rear disc brakes become a corrosion problem, and I believe those VW units are sealed for "lifetime of the car". So no service-revenue for that job either. Previous EV I had serviced after one year ('coz warrantee back then required that, but now it no longer does - I think first service is now "Two years"), then at 50K because the warrantee reduced at that point and I wanted anything that they might find fixed at that point. And then for the rest of the 95K miles I didn't have it serviced at all; nothing needed doing.

So the Tesla method, absent any dealers, is:

Rock up to collect your car. Attend a PowerPoint presentation with 20 or 30 other people (and one Tesla-bod). Then be given the keys and off you go (people on hand if you do have any questions etc.).

That solves the "epitome of hit and miss" dealerships IMO 'coz the PowerPoint is well designed, the trainer is trained, and every presentation to every new owner should be an identical event ...

And, personally, I have no need to pay for a one-to-one Salesman to polish his ego on me, and for which I am paying for his one-to-one time, I'm happy to join a group-therapy-session

And the car is going to drive itself soon, I know that for a fact because Musk said so (I can hear you hitting the floor as I type !!) ... but joking apart, when it does the darn thing can take itself to service.

Youare still ona roll but Yeah, I edited-out a bit from my earlier.

I owned several VW in a row, the Blue Motion most Eco models. 'Coz that was important to me. And then I discovered that they weren't Eco at all and I had been the victim of lying and cheating. I also have a fair bit of difficulty with any Corporation that has the moral compass of a sewer rat and can take the view that in USA it did a terrible thing and should willingly cough up hundreds of billions of $ in fines, but in EU it did absolutely nothing wrong and won't pay even a Penny. As a consequence and as a matter of principle I will never, ever, buy anything from the VAG stable ever again. But VW did me a favour, I had a look around for an Eco replacement and, at that time, I had no idea that an EV could go 200+ miles (nor that they ran on AA batteries ). Of course back then there was only one brand, and only one model, and it was 3x as much as a Blue Motion Golf ... but it got me in, and enjoying the benefits of, an EV many years earlier than I would otherwise have chosen to.

But through gritted teeth I wish VAG well, because I think what they are producing looks to be an effective solution, and not a fudge like many of their competitors.

I know we have different views on that.

If you took a gallon of diesel and put it in my generator (not nearly as efficient as a "power station") and charged my car from that it would go further than your car would on a gallon of diesel (unless you are driving some tiny econ-o-box). That experiment was done, for real, in Oz half a dozen years ago. And of course that gallon of Diesel is refined - Well-to-Car adds a significant amount of additional energy consumption, let alone the emissions that go with it - even if the tankers never run aground and rigs don't blow up.

That Well-to-Wheel is the cost (energy and emissions) you need to compare with your perception of the Electricity that I am using.

I don't always charge overnight, but usually I do (Come home, don't need the car until morning, makes no odds to me if it charges at 6PM Peak or Off Peak Midnight to 4AM). When it charges overnight electricity demand is low, and the surplus from North Sea Wind would otherwise be curtailed (using your and my tax dollars ...)

My beef with ICE is that cost of cleanup to the planet, which is coming, is being swept under the carpet. We know what the problem is, and as such we should, already, be charging the polluter - rather than just carrying on business-as-usual and rushing headlong towards the cliff

Same with air travel. I've stopped flying, until planes can burn [green] Hydrogen or somesuch, but I read that a tolerable solution is to "remove" from the atmosphere an equivalent amount of emissions created - instead of just some "plant a tree" greenwash.

The cost of such "capture" runs to about £1,000 for a family of 4 going to New York ... its a chunk of change which is not, currently, being factored into the prices that the polluter is paying.

 

You mean you aren't charged tax on utilities?

We pay carbon tax and then VAT on that- yes tax on tax. And VAT on the electricity and their additional delivery charges. The carbon tax is charged for all electricity, water, natural gas (home heating) and of course at the pump.

 

And all this has only come about because the planet is overpopulated by people.
End of story.
Well it should be but I see no reduction in that part of the problem being tackled so the problems will only get worse.

 

Well it is taxed, but what I mean is where will they get the fuel tax from?
At the moment diesel and petrol are taxed to the hilt, there is more tax on every gallon than it costs to produce, and it pays for lots of things, very little of that is spent on roads.

Somehow they will need to get that humungous amount of tax put onto the new electric cars.

 

Aha, @pete I was thinking that you guys got a break. Over here the pumps very clearly state how much petrol, how much is provincial tax, how much federal and so on.

And at the shops the VAT is .13% and added onto the price tag.

I've seen quite a few Teslas here and lots of charging stations outside shops and things. But those vehicles are far out of my price range and most of the commoners here!

 

I've never seen a solution to that which people thought was acceptable! and it appears that one of those, pestilence, we now have the technology to put a Fix in place PDQ

I am genuinely surprised how many I see around here because I would have considered them to be expensive enough to limit uptake. I don't have any idea how many other EV models I see as I am not very good at car-model-spotting.

I'll go for controversial then ... and I have absolutely no idea what the figures are.

Some cost from emissions - NHS cost, and days-off-work, premature death.

I'll grandly assume that EVs will fix all that

Does it balance the books? Reduce the tax-required by something tangible/"big" ?

We've been in a Passive House for 6 years. Prior to that had a cough each winter that always took me months to shift (we live deep in the countryside, so no in-town pollution causing that). Since passive house neither Mrs K nor I have had a single winter Cough or Cold (its a known benefit of Passive House, but we didn't know that until a year or two after we moved in), and we have been around other people in the office dying of THIS or THAT each Winter ... and still not caught anything.

So let's make that a requirement for all new housing stock. The pundits say it adds 7% to cost of a new build, and then pretty much zero Winter heating cost (ditto for Summer cooling) for the lifetime of the building ... no annual boiler maintenance / replacement ... solves the coming "No more Gas boilers" deadline ... and fewer days off work ...

Passive House = extreme levels of insulation, "hermetically sealed" building, and then a mechanical ventilation system which takes exhaust air (typically from "wet rooms") through a heat exchanger to scavenge heat to warm the incoming fresh air which is fed into bedrooms / living spaces. The actual air changes are similar to a draughty building, except it is all "controlled", so no slightly musty corners, no cooking smells, and definitely no draughts.

Never need to open a window (you can if you want ...) which means no flies coming in, and no chucking-out the heat in Winter (or letting the Summer heat in) when you "air a room". Orientation and overhangs let low Winter sun & heat in, but keep high Summer sun out. The mechanical ventilation has a pollen filter which probably helps with hayfever (not something we suffer from, but visitors remark on how "comfortable" the atmosphere is).

 

I sometimes think its the way we live these days that leaves us open to certain diseases, you need to be exposed to them to become immune.
Far too much air conditioning and as for a hermetically sealed house, narr dont think so, i'd go round the bend I go in and out too many times a day.

 

You missed the point about the mechanical ventilation. Every room gets masses of air changes, just not through draughty ill-fitting windows, or by "airing the room" once a day.

I recommend you visit a passive house before you assume the worst

I agree about air conditioned offices ... Covid brought to light how much of the air is "mixed", rather than replaced, in typical office systems. None of that here, chuck out the old air, bring in fresh ... but transfer the heat from outgoing air to incoming.

 

I guess I'm a philistine then. I'm sat here with the back door open wide, several windows open and quite enjoying it!

I have seen homes with geothermal heating and other earth friendly living solutions however it is not a full solution year round over here. Our winters are long and bitter and yes, most of us have efficient windows that are tightly sealed and have at minimum double panes. Sure if we could save summer heat for six months, that would be great but that's not possible. Even the ground would give up it's stored heat long before winter was over.

The place I saw had a furnace and wood stove as well to back up the system.

I would be very interested in an electric car if it carried a small price ticket and fully charged using solar (PV)or wind charged.

 

I wouldn't even know where to find one, I've never heard of them before.

I've come across weirdos building houses out of straw bales and that kind of stuff, but who can afford to waste the kind of space two ft thick walls take up.

They recently showed people, on the news, living in housing with mould all running down the walls, if we cant even get the masses into a place where the roof is not leaking or the walls are not acting like sponges, then this kind of thing is just pie in the sky.

Most people just want somewhere warm and dry.

 

I considered one. I was bothered on two counts, the first was that the price was eye watering ... and the second was that the government, using tax payer's money, wanted to give me at least half.

It was for a big house, the grant amount was capped, but even so it was still completely unreasonable that any one household should be given that much "assistance". I've forgotten exactly, but from memory the "grant" was more than £30K. It needed nearly 10 boreholes , 3-phase electricity upgrade - the heat pump which, itself, was not that expensive, and a bunch of plumbing alterations - so significant labour cost. The whole lot was £60-80K as I remember it.

Heat Pump is going to produce relatively low grade heat (compared to a boiler); less than 60C I think compared to, what, 80C for a boiler?

For that to work the house needs to be better insulated (and thus need less heat) than the original design - assuming not a recent build or not as well insulated as it might have been. More cost.

Well ... I suppose they could fit much bigger radiators, for more heating area for the lower temperature water, but even with that change the response-time would be slower, so for a house that was not well insulated you would come home to a cold house and want to heat it up quickly, "like the old gas boiler", and I very much doubt a boiler-replacement-heat-pump is going to be capable of doing that.

If we are not going to have Gas / Oil boilers something will need to change, and in my reckoning that will be improvements to insulation. Sticking a bit of Pink Fluff in the loft is one thing, upgrading an existing house to really good insulation standards is also eye wateringly expensive. 2/3 bed semi is in the £150-200K region. It would be much much more comfortable to live in than the original, but unaffordable. It would be a whole pile easier to knock it down and start again .. but that's not sustainable either!

Let me know when you are passing

 

@Fat Controller
Maybe passive houses are something that would be worth an extra thread?

I generally agree new technologies are pretty expensive and not for everyone right off the bat. But it was the same with running water, electricity, petrol cars instead of carriages or glass windows. In newer times, everyone else besides @shiney can remember there would be mobile phones, GPS navigation, portable PCs, smartphones, and flatscreen TVs.

All those things started out as rich man's toys before being affordable for the masses. But they stayed, the prices dropped and most became a common sight in our lives and replaced the technology that preceded them.

I expect the same happening to the area of automotives. First came the rich man's toys (aka Tesla's Model S) then came a few mostly unusable EVs that where just converted ICE-models (the equivalent of slapping a petrol engine into a horse carriage) and now there are pretty usable cars in higher middle price range. Give them another 10 years and even medium to small cars will be widely available with acceptable ranges and prices.

Edit: I am even going that far as to put the money where my mouth is. I invested a few thousand Euros in Toyota, as they are racing Quantum Scape (VW) in the development of the next generation of battery types - solid state batteries. Coming in at higher capacity, less rare earth elements used and reduced flammability. Toyota wants to reveal their finds in the upcoming Olympic Games so I am pretty hyped.