Furious , anybody any advice other than a stiff drink?

Discussion in 'General Gardening Discussion' started by silu, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. shiney

    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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    It was a slightly different type of case but I think the principle still stands. The solicitors had been acting for me and I was disputing their bill. I hadn't wanted to report them for not having done their job properly but didn't want to pay all their bill as they had incurred costs that I thought should not have happened. We spent years arguing, sometimes a good six months between letters. Then I took them to the 'Taxing Master' who ruled that they couldn't present me with their bill without going to the High Court first (technical reasons not worth putting here). So they, eventually, applied to the High Court.

    The judge, reluctantly, allowed them to rewrite their bill with the same charges but aksed me if there was something I would like to ask (he wasn't allowed to tell me I could now charge my costs). I said that I would like to ask for costs and he said that he would give me two weeks to draw up my costs - and I replied that I had already done so and had them with me. He looked at them, almost laughed, and with a big grin on his face said "Granted". My cost came, exactly to the penny, the amount on the solicitors' bill!! :heehee:

    My costs were all for my time working on our dispute, right from the beginning, and included my time researching and for all the work I had done, my time infront of the Taxing Master, and everything I could think of. I had originally offered the solicitors 50% of their bill. Which was a little more than the amount I had stated that I thought they were entitled to - which showed reasonableness on my part.

    Other cases I have handled have included a threat of charging for my time from the beginning of the dispute (the costs I had asked for were from a time later than that - showing reasonableness) if they persisted in their delaying tactics.

    One of the largest power companies totally ignored me so I applied for non-payment of my bill through the Small Claims Court. They ignored the court summons and I asked for judgement (granted) and they disputed having received my bills or the summons and asked for another hearing. I objected and showed the court that I had issued my bill in five different ways so that they could not say they hadn't received it (I'm used to big company tactics :)).

    The court agreed with me but the company still ignored me. So I sent the Bailiffs in to their head office. :lunapic 130165696578242 5: That got results. :thumbsup:
     
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    • silu

      silu gardening easy...hmmm

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      Wow are you related to a Bulldog Shiney?! Good for you. I doubt I'll get as much success but have taken the plunge and got my solicitor to scratch a letter to my council, he's done it for nothing as he's a keen gardener and we did a swap for his time and some of my Aconites and Snowdrops of which I have 1000s.Maybe his letter will make them take me seriously as so far no response to my FOI. I wish I'd been present when the bailiffs arrived...love it:lunapic 130165696578242 5:. Perhaps if there were more around like you these huge organisations would treat joe public with a little more respect.
       
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      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        I originally got into fighting cases after having watched, and really enjoyed, a very funny 1960's TV series called 'Misleading Cases'. It was based on a book called "A P Herbert's Misleading Cases".

        http://www.comedy.co.uk/guide/tv/a_p_herberts_misleading_cases/

        So, for the last 40 years I have fought cases for myself and other people (friends and customers). Most didn't come to court but I used to end up in court about twice a year. As a layman you're allowed a lot of leaway in what you say, which makes it a lot easier. Fortunately, I never lost a case. :dbgrtmb:
         
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        • Sheal

          Sheal Total Gardener

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          So bartering is still alive and well Silu! :)
           
        • silu

          silu gardening easy...hmmm

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          Sure is!
           
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          • Verdun

            Verdun Passionate gardener

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            Shiney, what an impressive fellow you are. I'm a determined, dogged guy too but have to commend you
             
          • shiney

            shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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            I'm not sure about the 'determined and dogged', most people say I'm bloody awkward :heehee:

            To me, it's all a game where I look for loopholes, wriggle space and use semantics and dissembling as a weapon. :dbgrtmb:
             
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            • silu

              silu gardening easy...hmmm

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              Funny how a solicitor's letter bears fruit! I now have the info that I need. What I don't know is whether it would be deemed reasonable that the Council took from 25th November until 22nd of Dec to even request permission from the Electricity and Gas companies to commence works.The permissions were granted more or less immediately but by then most of the trouble caused had happened. The huge delay between works commencing (7th Jan) and road finally tarmaced (12th Feb) was due solely to the council "managers" not having a clue about culverts and capacity needed to cope with the overflow from the loch at times and consequently the pathetic 1st attempt had to be completely disregarded and an adequate (hopefully!) alternative created . If a couple of men with shovels had been employed in the 1st place then no permissions would have been necessary and as it transpired the gas pipe was about 40 metres from any digging, and power lines never really involved either. I'll speak with my solicitor tomorrow and see what he thinks. I could never understand why the council didn't make a bigger effort to unblock the original ancient culvert which had caused no problems that anybody can remember since it's creation around Victorian times until it blocked last November. I found out the answer today. The council deemed it prudent to decommission it so that they wouldn't have to unblock it in the future. Good god I wonder just how many years would go by before it blocked again if ever and how many unblockings could we have had for what it has cost to create a new 1.I reckon this fiasco must have cost at least £20,000 and could be much more. To me unblock the old 1, repair where necessary and put up a grill to stop anything large blocking it in the future...sorted. This is EXACTLY what our neighbouring farmer wanted done, but then we were in the hands of "experts"!!!
               
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              • Sheal

                Sheal Total Gardener

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                I had to re-read that Shiney. I thought you said 'dis-embowelling as a weapon' for a second. :heehee:
                 
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                • Cacadores

                  Cacadores ember

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                  Well done. Makes you wonder how these managers get their jobs in the first place. My best result was taking my estate agents to court to get my deposit back on the new house I'd wanted to buy. I'd paid the deposit but the re-registration of the house was taking ages. Eventually, after a few phone calls we found out the owner of the house had got divorced. His ex-wife was claiming ownership of the house and the sale was blocked. I asked the estate agents for my money back; £9,000, since the block was in place before they'd signed the deposit contract with me. They offered nothing - they arranged the house sale, they did their job, they said. So I made them an 'offer': they can hold on to my money if they pay my exhorbitant fee-schedule. If they are still holding onto my money after 10 days, I will treat that as an 'acceptance' of my 'offer'. After ten days they were still holding on to my money and offered a third of it back, which I rejected. Eventually I decided I'd better take them to court soon in case they go bust or something. So I took them to court and got the full amount back plus costs. They appealed, but sent in the appeal one day after the time-limit, the noggins. The best thing was, I was still contracted to the house owner. Eventually he sorted his dispute with his ex-wife out and the sale went ahead, albeit a year late. He'd also put a kitchen in there so that he could rent it out in the year he couldn't sell it. So I got the house, plus a kitchen, for a lot less than I'd expected. Most of that £9,000 windfall is now in long-term account for little Cacadore.
                   
                • shiney

                  shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                  That's 'Plan B'. :snork: :snork: :snork:




                  Very well done :dbgrtmb:

                  My first case in the courts was against estate agents. We were selling our house in order to move to Shineyland and the agents told us that someone had made a reduced offer. I said that I would accept it as long as the sale went through in under two weeks. The agent got back to me saying that they had already sold their house and could do it in that time.

                  We went away on holiday with instructions for our solicitor (our 'best man' at our wedding) to sign everything for us. When we got back nothing had been done. When I enquire, the agent said that the purchasers were having trouble with their purchasers and I said that he had told me that they had sold their house. He said "Oh, no. It was sold subject to contract."

                  It was just then (1972) that the bottom fell out of the housing market because the morgage rate jumped 3%!!!!! We had turned away a couple of enquiries because of what the agent had told us and we didn't sell the house for another year - to his original purchaser. We had already bought Shineyland so had to quickly furnish the house and find tenants until we could sell it.

                  When the sale went through the agent sent us his bill and I said that he had deliberately lied to me (he was the selling agent for the purchaser) so he didn't deserve his fee. He said that I had signed him up as our agent and the law said he was entitled to his fee if he finds us a buyer. I went to his office, with a witness, and offered him 50% of his fee as a gesture of goodwill and said that it was that or nothing.

                  We ended up in court with him claiming his fee under his contract as my agent. My argument caught him by surprise as I claimed that he wasn't entitled to the 'under his contract as my agent'. His solicitor said that I had just made a ridiculous statement as I had agreed we had the contract and the court asked me to explain myself. I said that it was simple, as my agent his duty was to act in my best interest. He, clearly, didn't do so because he lied to me when he knew perfectly well that the purchasers house wasn't sold. Therefore he had broken his side of the implied terms of the contract. I also said that because he lied to me I had lost a potential purchaser and had been put to the expense of renting out my house.

                  The court ruled in my favour and cancelled his bill and said that as I had made a reasonable offer, and he had turned it down, I didn't have to pay that to him. :hapydancsmil:

                  Maybe one day I'll write "Shiney's Adventures In Courtland". :heehee:
                   
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                  • Cacadores

                    Cacadores ember

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                    Sounds good!

                    I got involved in the law when a client I was arranging training courses for refused to pay me near the end of the course because some of their trainees had left the company. They refused to even pay my costs, which were substantial. When I went to see their boss he just smirked and told me there was nothing I could do. They were a firm of debt collectors! The solicitor I hired advised me to continue to send trainers to the client even though they refused the training. She got my outstanding fees paid, but managed to claim costs for herself even though I'd paid all her costs, not to mention the trainers' fees for doing nothing! She also turned up late to meetings and kept me in the dark all the way through. I thought, 'never again'. When clients haven't paid since then, I've dealt with them myself and represented myself in court. It's scarey and a little debilitating to your life to have a court date hanging over you but it's also fun in a way because the lawyers seldom prepare properly when they know I've had no legal training. They come in coasting and are always surprised when I take their cases apart. It's a great feeling when you pull out a statement in front of a judge that directly contradicts everything the other party's lawyer just said!
                     
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                    • shiney

                      shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                      Well done :blue thumb:

                      I've found it helps if you can try and annoy the lawyers for the other side. One case I had was against a very big holiday company (TUI). They promised something they didn't deliver and argued that they never promised it. They had a number of witnesses which included the girl from their call centre and a printout from her log. The solicitor, and the girl, didn't like it when I kept calling her a 'call girl'. :snork:
                       
                    • pamsdish

                      pamsdish Total Gardener

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                      Who needs expensive solicitors when we can rely on fellow members for advice as good as this. :paladin:
                       
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                      • silu

                        silu gardening easy...hmmm

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                        A quick update and closure to this sage of council incompetence.Firstly a huge thank you to all who gave such good advice and shoulder to cry on.As things have turned out, the damage to the garden has been minimal miraculously. To my amazement the vast majority of the Snowdrops survived despite being submerged for nearly 3 months! They were very late in comparison to others which weren't in the flooded area and I thought they'd bought it but no, most came up and flowered. Likewise the Daffodils, altho many of those have brown tips on their leaves so didn't enjoy being waterlogged.Hostas which like the Snowdrops were under water for weeks are fine and so far the Rhododendrons and Azaleas look healthy too and are either flowering or about to. SO fingers crossed the financial loss re my garden is likely to be verging on the non existant.

                        After some email ping pong between me, my solicitor and council an out of court settlement has eventually been reached with a proviso that should I discover plants fail due to having been saturated between now and the autumn I can look to be further compensated. While the settlement isn't huge it does cover the extra fuel we used due to our road being closed for weeks and weeks plus a bit for all the stress and inconvenience. My solicitor reckoned the only reason the council were prepared to cough up was because they REALLY didn't want me going to the local paper re how they couldn't even work out the simplest maths, took months to fix a let's face it minor problem and spent god knows how much on making a mountain out of a mole hill.

                        I haven't got the cheque yet but have already spent the money! on some new shrubs. They'll be nice but to be honest I'd rather have not had to go through all the bu....... about. I was tempted to not reach a settlement, go to court and embarrass the council, however my solicitor said that I had to be careful not to look greedy and unreasonable ending up as "the bad guy".

                        What I have learnt from all of this is that plants/bulbs can be extremely good at surviving against all the odds/ expert opinion which is good to know.

                        Thanks again all.
                         
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