Renewable energy sources - the good, the bad and the ugly

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Mar 3, 2021.

  1. pete

    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    52,236
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Mid Kent
    Ratings:
    +97,686
    I think you are right about floors, but its a pretty major upset to sort them out and retro fit insulation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2023
  2. Clueless 1 v2

    Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2022
    Messages:
    2,038
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +2,769
    The current ones are a scam. But only because of the completely inept way the government (past and present) manage them.

    They basically set eligibility criteria, and then leave it to private companies to manage. Sounds good in principle, and is a great box ticking exercise for the government. But the reality is lots of cowboy traders do a half arsed job and then bill the government. Or they come round to do a 'free assessment', declare that you don't meet the criteria because your roof is one inch too low or similar, then offer to do the work anyway for 25% of the cost and they'll claim the rest off the scheme, or either way they'll claim for their time doing the 'free assessment'.

    A couple of the pensioners in our extended family got free central heating under such schemes. There are visible, uninsulated pipes everywhere and their bills went up significantly. That said, it's not always a scam. We got our loft insulation topped up for free back when we were eligible for child tax credits, before they lowered the eligibility threshold.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Jocko

      Jocko Guided by my better half.

      Joined:
      Jan 2, 2022
      Messages:
      2,417
      Gender:
      Male
      Occupation:
      Retired engineer. Now Vice CEO of the garden.
      Location:
      Danderhall on southern edge of Edinburgh. Zone 8a.
      Ratings:
      +6,783
      My late mother-in-law got a free gas boiler fitted (central heating previously came off the back boiler) and it was great. Apart from the fact they installed the boiler half covering a double socket in the kitchen!
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • Fat Controller

        Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

        Joined:
        May 5, 2012
        Messages:
        28,363
        Gender:
        Male
        Occupation:
        Public Transport
        Location:
        At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
        Ratings:
        +53,400
        Many collectors/enthusiasts are already turning to synthetic/bio-fuels or are converting their classics to EV (although the latter is a costly business.

        The ban on ICE, however, is short-sighted - - with that reduction of production of fossil fuels will come a rise in price as you rightly point out, yet that same rise in price will also translate through to the cost of food and other goods, a significant amount of which will have no choice but to continue to be transported via fossil fuelled vehicles. It is possible to have heavy chassis BEVs, but their range is hugely limited. I have direct experience of this and they are not the panacea you might think they are.

        Indeed, it is a bit of a media storm in a teacup - however, it is also not a million miles from policy that has been mooted before - first I heard this sort of thing was when Boris was in government.

        We have, and there has been a commensurate increase in the safety standards that have to be met as well as considerably stronger planning laws/NIMBY-ism than there was in the 60's - - back then, it was a case of compulsory purchase and telling folks what was being done, now it is years of consultation and crying about loss of views or how to rehome a great crested newt...

        That is very, very subjective and may well even relate to where you live. In London, even for those who have houses (rather than flats) it is quite likely that they won't be able to charge at home; for those who are able to charge at home, the maximum rate is 7kW, or 2.3kW if they don't have a dedicated charger. I have a colleague who is having an EV foisted upon him by Motability and because his family are huge, he needs a 9 seater - the car he is getting is van based and therefore will have a realistic range of circa 140 miles, which he is going to use most of each day. If he manages to get a driveway installed (still up for debate with the council), then he will charge at home, but even then it is going to be touch and go whether he will be able to charge the vehicle full with the time available.

        There is clear evidence that the climate is changing - but, it always has and always will. The problem with the current evidence being used is that the timescales being referred to are relatively short and the data itself is being hugely weaponised for scaremongering.. but not with a view to actually making anything better, but rather to extricate money from the likes of you and I.

        If (and it is a big, big if). .. if there was such a 'crisis' then the great and the good would NOT be trotting about in private jets; our national broadcaster would not be flying people to other countries purely to say "it's hot here", we would be planting lots and lots of trees (instead of culling them in their millions), we would be working on water storage, distribution and irrigation, we would be looking at preventing flooding to reduce unnecessary building works and we would be building decent homes with gardens etc instead of lobbing up stacks of boxes in the sky.
         
        • Agree Agree x 1
        • Fat Controller

          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

          Joined:
          May 5, 2012
          Messages:
          28,363
          Gender:
          Male
          Occupation:
          Public Transport
          Location:
          At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
          Ratings:
          +53,400
          It is - but we are either serious about tackling this sort of stuff or we are not.
           
          • Useful Useful x 1
          • Fat Controller

            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

            Joined:
            May 5, 2012
            Messages:
            28,363
            Gender:
            Male
            Occupation:
            Public Transport
            Location:
            At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
            Ratings:
            +53,400
            My mum had a boiler put in along with fire alarms under one of these schemes, but in fairness that was linked to her energy supplier also, and they did a good job; her bills momentarily came down until the world went mad...
             
            • Like Like x 1
            • Informative Informative x 1
            • Fat Controller

              Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

              Joined:
              May 5, 2012
              Messages:
              28,363
              Gender:
              Male
              Occupation:
              Public Transport
              Location:
              At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
              Ratings:
              +53,400
              Yet for someone who was employed, if the government provided interest free finance over an extended period (lets say 100 months at £160 for the sake of an argument) to have it done and that same person then saved £80 a month on their energy bills, they would end up only being £80 a month worse off net for 100 months and they would be warm. That to me seems like a decent deal, and would make it accessible to an awful lot more folks.
               
              • Agree Agree x 1
              • Clueless 1 v2

                Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

                Joined:
                Jun 26, 2022
                Messages:
                2,038
                Gender:
                Male
                Ratings:
                +2,769
                On the point about ICE Vs EV, I used to be all for rapid transition to EV. Right up until people started talking about mining the sea bed for all the extra lithium needed for all the extra batteries.

                People take a growing interest in what happens on land. People care dearly about rainforests and rightly so. But the health of the oceans has a far bigger impact on our climate. The sea is a significantly bigger carbon sink than land, with kelp forests sucking up more carbon than an equivalent area of rainforest. Most governments have so far applied common sense, but if there's profit to be made short term, and we allow large scale mining of the sea bed, we may as well just do what we like now because there'll be no future to save.

                Does this mean I've become opposed to EVs? Absolutely not. But I think they're still at proof of concept stage. There is already a lot of R&D going into alternative battery technologies. Some of which increase the capacity of lithium batteries, others don't use lithium at all, using more abundant materials instead. Great progress is being made but they're not yet ready for mass production.

                Setting a deadline for the eradication of new ICE vehicles basically puts pressure on manufacturers to just use what's already proven to work. That is lithium batteries, leading to a massive increase in lithium mining. Initially that will happen on land, mostly in countries that nobody cares about because they can't see it, but when land based lithium mines fail to meet demand, there'll be pressure to mine the sea bed, which would be catastrophic.

                Take that deadline away and it gives time for scientists and engineers to perfect some of the up and coming battery technologies. Meanwhile growing public pressure and demand for energy efficiency and green credentials will still drive a move to cleaner vehicles.

                As an aside, we've already seen this before. Remember when the government decided to rush through the 5% bioethanol, then more recently 10% Great. 10% of petrol is now carbon neutral. Except for the fuel used to farm it, process it, and ship it, for a lower energy density (fewer mpg). Not to mention the pressure on food production when you take land away from food production to grow fuel crops instead.
                 
                • Agree Agree x 2
                • Like Like x 1
                  Last edited: Jul 25, 2023
                • Fat Controller

                  Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

                  Joined:
                  May 5, 2012
                  Messages:
                  28,363
                  Gender:
                  Male
                  Occupation:
                  Public Transport
                  Location:
                  At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
                  Ratings:
                  +53,400
                  This company are doing sustainable fuels @Clueless 1 v2 - Get in touch | Coryton

                  Again, not the only solution in the toolkit, but part of it. I am not anti-EV by any stretch of the imagination, but I have considerable first hand experience of them in use for commercial purposes and it most definitely is not all plain sailing and is very often not 'as described' - - are they terrible? No. But are they suitable for every application? No.

                  We need to stop vilifying anyone who is not a climate evangelist as being a denier and listen to all components of the debate from everyone, including those at the bottom who can ill afford the taxation/additional costs/new equipment.
                   
                  • Like Like x 2
                  • gks

                    gks Total Gardener

                    Joined:
                    Feb 28, 2021
                    Messages:
                    1,811
                    Gender:
                    Male
                    Occupation:
                    Production Manager
                    Location:
                    Cumbria
                    Ratings:
                    +5,131
                    I honestly don't know what the solution is but we do need to take, a time out to revaluate if we are heading in the right direction.

                    When you look at countries like Norway and Iceland, an abundance of renewables and leading the way in moving away from fossil fuels, yet they produce more e-waste per capita than any other country. With technology moving so fast, e-waste is now the fastest growing waste stream, especially in the West. Norwegians have been generating the most e-waste per capita since 2014, not an issue if your recycling but when your recycling rates are not keeping pace then your inevitably causing another problem. The UK is ranked 2nd generating the most e-waste per capita and will probably soon been ranked 1st, our lack of recycling will mean the UK will be the largest producers of e-waste for many years to come.
                     
                  • shiney

                    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

                    Joined:
                    Jul 3, 2006
                    Messages:
                    64,512
                    Gender:
                    Male
                    Occupation:
                    Retired - Last Century!!!
                    Location:
                    Herts/Essex border. Zone 8b
                    Ratings:
                    +126,248
                    You try telling that to a lot of my friends and relatives who live in high rise buildings or ones that have no off road parking! Even in our village there are a lot of old properties that have little or no front gardens or do have front gardens but no driveways or parking spaces in them. Those are banned from having them put in (planning regs) as 'paving plant growing areas is bad for the environment' and the ancient drainage system wouldn't be able to cope with the runoff - not to mention the cost of doing so and the cost to the local authority of lowering kerbs (which they would pass on to the residents).

                    Using generalised terms such as 'for most people' I think gives a wrong impression, especially when you are one of those that doesn't fit into that category. It's a similar argument when Sadiq says that 'only 10% of vehicles in outer London are non-compliant with ULEZ' seems to gloss over the estimated figure that would entail. I would be inclined to disbelieve both that figure and the opposite figure that has been published by the RAC that up to 700,000 vehicles in London are non-compliant. The Mayor of London's own department have stated that 'only' 200,000 vehicles in London are non-compliant (2.3 million vehicles drive in London every day - their figures).

                    Even if that figure was only in the tens of thousands in outer London it will impact horrendously on a lot of households. The scrappage scheme that Sadiq has put forward is only a tiny amount of the money that householders would have to fork out to buy EV vehicles (and put in the charging infrastructure) as those are now so expensive.
                     
                    • Like Like x 1
                    • Clueless 1 v2

                      Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

                      Joined:
                      Jun 26, 2022
                      Messages:
                      2,038
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Ratings:
                      +2,769
                      On the subject of affordability, what do we think will happen to the price of lithium when demand outstrips supply?

                      What knock on effect will that have on the rest of the economy, and people's livelihoods?
                       
                      • Like Like x 1
                      • Clueless 1 v2

                        Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

                        Joined:
                        Jun 26, 2022
                        Messages:
                        2,038
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        Ratings:
                        +2,769
                        From where? And at what environmental cost?
                         
                      • shiney

                        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

                        Joined:
                        Jul 3, 2006
                        Messages:
                        64,512
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        Occupation:
                        Retired - Last Century!!!
                        Location:
                        Herts/Essex border. Zone 8b
                        Ratings:
                        +126,248
                        I think I shall need to put my stock of dilithium crystals under heavy lock and key. :yikes: I need them to power my deflector shield. :blue thumb:

                        Shhh! Don't tell anyone about it. :th scifD36:
                         
                      • shiney

                        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

                        Joined:
                        Jul 3, 2006
                        Messages:
                        64,512
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        Occupation:
                        Retired - Last Century!!!
                        Location:
                        Herts/Essex border. Zone 8b
                        Ratings:
                        +126,248
                        Not really possible when you have dozens of high rise dwellings with only one or two lampposts nearby. :dunno:
                         
                      Loading...

                      Share This Page

                      1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                        By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
                        Dismiss Notice