Separate Moan Thread About The Election

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by shiney, Jun 22, 2024.

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  1. ViewAhead

    ViewAhead Head Gardener

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    We wouldn't need to prop up people's income with welfare if decent wages were paid. We wouldn't need housing benefit if the housing system was fit for purpose and money wasn't being siphoned out by the already-haves. I'm all for personal responsibility, not having children you can't afford, not living beyond your means, etc, but that only works if it is possible to manage on earnings. We have the benefits dependence we have because it suits the very wealthy. It allows them to own most of the resources, exploit cheap labour, control people through poverty, etc.

    I don't want communism or socialism. I want a fair chance and the possibility of social mobility.
     
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    • KT53

      KT53 Gardener

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      There's an old joke "How do you know when a politician is lying?" Their lips are moving.

      That's still true. I wouldn't trust anything any politician says.

      Voting has become a case of choosing what you perceive as the 'Least worst' choice.
       
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      • Punkdoc

        Punkdoc Super Gardener

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        There is no doubt that the quality of politicians has declined in recent years, but I still believe that there are "viable" options out there. Maybe I am wrong, but nothing can be as bad as the last 14 years.
         
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        • ViewAhead

          ViewAhead Head Gardener

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          Honestly, I don't think things are likely to improve much under Labour. We seem to have passed a tipping point. Secure employment is never coming back. Secure housing is never coming back. Utility systems that are geared to users' needs (rather than shareholders) are never coming back. These things are gone. There may be tinkering round the edges, but turning round a juggernaut speeding downhill just can't be done.
           
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          • KT53

            KT53 Gardener

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            @Punkdoc I wish I had your optimism. The truth however seems to be that Labour has never left the country in a better situation when leaving office than when it took over. Yes the country is in a mess but many seem to conveniently forget that Covid has changed everything and cost countries, not just the UK, billions upon billions. There must be a knock on effect from that, and it's not stopping just because the worst of Covid is hopefully behind us.
            I will continue to vote for the party I have always voted for, not because I think they are great or even good, but because I believe that the alternative would be even worse.
             
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            • Bluejayway

              Bluejayway Plantaholic

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              If Mr Starmer's mate, Mr Corbyn, had been elected ....
               
            • pete

              pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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              We seem to have a bad imbalance and I'm not clever enough to work it out.

              As soon as wages rise the companies then put up their prices to pay for them, we hear small businesses say they are struggling because the government has put up the minimum wage and they either cut staff or put up prices.

              There just seems to be a fundamental problem in how the system works, and we just go round in circles.

              Wage rise, price rise, round and round.


              Is it that we all aspire to a standard of living which is unsustainable?
               
            • Loofah

              Loofah Admin Staff Member

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              People seem to be under an impression that there is a cohesive 'system'. There isn't. There's no repeatability or consistency, just shuffling of jobs to achieve isolated goals and normally not the core aim.
               
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              • Fat Controller

                Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                I agree on some of your points, however it doesn't all fall to wages.

                We moved into this house (rented) 13 years ago. Our landlady purchased the house a matter of a couple of weeks before we moved in, for £250k; the value of this house is now at least £550k. It is not a big house either - quite the reverse in fact, it is a small, two bed semi. In reality, it is too small for us now, not least as our daughter is 21 this year, but we are stuck here as finding something more suitable is wholly out of our price range.

                Nobody's wages have kept pace with house prices - hell, most wages have barely kept pace with the rise in council tax and food price rises, that is before we get to the sudden leap in utility and fuel costs. The company I work for has posted a huge loss for the past few years - a lot of restructuring is being done along with contract revision etc, but we are yet to see zero let alone profit - so where, exactly, would the money come from to pay higher wages? For clarity, we contract as a provider of public transport, so if we are able to hike wages by charging more, then the public purse is the one that ultimately would take the hit here, to the tune of many millions.

                There are those (and I will put this a little more delicately than perhaps it has been put so far) that make a 'career' out of the benefits system. There is actually a spur of my own family that is exactly in this position - had a kid at 18 whilst living with mum, got a council flat, had another two kids to get a house... got a 3-bed terrace; had even more kids with a view to getting a bigger house and then it backfired because there were no houses available. Roll on some years and there is six kids (two of which are now young adults actually) and two parents living in a very cramped mid-terrace house and ALL of them are on one benefit or another. I can think of at least three other families that I know of that are near on identical - have either never worked, or if they have worked it has been short-lived.

                For me, one of the biggest things we need to resolve is a very simple one - housing. If housing is affordable (and I mean genuinely affordable and not the current definition) and is also of good standard and not solely rabbit-hutches in the sky, then people would be better off in terms of mental health, physical health and would also have some disposable income to spend thus supporting the economy. Part of that is ensuring that utilities/fuel/energy/food is also in sufficient supply at an affordable level.

                Yet here we are, spending many billions on train sets (HS2 being only one) and spaffing money around like it is confetti on various other things and nobody is willing to grasp the nettle and sort out the bare basics in this country.
                 
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                • Fat Controller

                  Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                  It is simple in a lot of respects - it is the law of percentages. A 10% increase on a £20k wage is £2k; that same 10% increase on the rental cost of business premises (let's say £1,000,000 per year means a rise of £100k); so the rise at the top is disproportionate to the bottom.
                   
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                  • BB3

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                    If people can't buy houses, they don't buy carpets or furniture or white goods or employ builders or maintenance people. If their money is going almost entirely on rent and utilities, they can't afford to spend money on stuff. But as most of the stuff will have been made in China, that's probably not as big an issue as it might seem.
                    Most of the available money is not being passed around the economy. It is being loaded into the pockets of shareholders and the already rich. They hold on to this money and salt it away or spend it on obscenely expensive trinkets which they salt away. I
                    This is part of the reason things have ground to a halt.
                     
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                    • ViewAhead

                      ViewAhead Head Gardener

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                      @Fat Controller, I'm not suggesting it is only about wages. But for society to function, someone in a full time job needs to earn enough for housing, utilities, essential transport/food/clothing, and other basics. Because the wealthy have a lot invested in property, growth in house prices has been both allowed and enabled by govs, leading to the current unsustainable position. Just putting wages up isn't the answer. And neither is using the benefits system to paper over the cracks and allow the whole situation to continue getting worse.

                      The problem is there is no easy remedy to the mess the housing market has got into that would not immediately plunge lots of people with mortgages into negative equity. Any adjustment downwards, which is what is needed, would have a very wide tsunami effect.

                      That's why I'm not very hopeful of improvement whoever is in power.
                       
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                      • ViewAhead

                        ViewAhead Head Gardener

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                        I don't think it is that. Secure employment, secure housing, and provision of utilities ought not to be considered luxury items in the 5th biggest economy in the world. It is the siphoning off of resources by the few, leaving too little to go around amongst the many, that has made the basics unattainable.
                         
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                        • Fat Controller

                          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                          It is, partly, yes. The housing problem goes back to what I mentioned earlier though - lack of supply. Let's be honest, what we really need is a mass housebuilding program on a scale not seen since the 50's & 60's - but, no politician/party is going to suggest that because they fear it will cause a crash in house prices (it likely would), so the spiral continues... for now. We are, pretty much, at the point where folks cannot get on the ladder at the bottom therefore those further up cannot sell. Prices are so high, folks are (rightly) being super-choosy because they know once they buy it, they are stuck with it. My neighbours across the road are selling and have had a load of viewings - their house is immaculate by the way - but folks are not biting because the kitchen is too small, or the garden is too small, or the layout doesn't suit etc etc. At £650k for a three bed semi, I don't blame them for being choosy to be honest.

                          Part of the problem is also the massive deposit and hurdles that banks put in the way - folks are expected to raise 10% deposit (at least) and then pass the bank's affordability hurdles. Yet on the other hand, folks can rent privately paying mortgage money and more with far fewer hurdles - and they can do so for many years (decades even) yet their rent payment record means squat when it comes to the bank assessing if they can afford a mortgage.
                           
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                          • Fat Controller

                            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                            I don't disagree and in fact, I've just said as much in my last post (sorry, I didn't read through first); there would be a wider effect if correction was made, no doubt, but then who would really suffer there? If someone had bought their home to live in as a forever home, then it dropping in value wouldn't matter as such - as long as they could afford the mortgage repayments. The only downside would be if they came to sell, then they would be scuppered. If it was purely for the sake of re-mortgages then that could be handled with some legislation that means banks have to mortgage on the value owed and not the property value, for existing homeowners. They'd be screwed for moving until they paid the mortgage off though.
                             
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