The cost of living... what can we do?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Aug 26, 2022.

  1. shiney

    shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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    I'd be interested in how they calculate a 300% efficiency. I know they say that a pump uses 300W of electricity and produces 900W of heat energy but it stretches my imagination a bit to call it efficiency.

    Also, unless you have superb insulation a pump can't produce a high enough temperature in the house during winter unless you have oversized radiators (compared to current ones) or use underfloor heating.

    I understand that some of the pumps that are in the pipeline are supposed to be able to produce more heat. Maybe they will have them at a reasonable price by the time I need to think about changing my gas boiler.
     
  2. JWK

    JWK Gardener Staff Member

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    It seems to be a standard way of comparing heat pumps, from googling "The Co-efficient of performance (COP) is an expression of the efficiency of a heat pump." In the UK it seems COPs are between 2 and 3. Octopus are using 3 which may be correct, but when I was researching Heat Pumps people were claiming figures closer to 2.

    Using the kWh unit figures @gks was quoted:

    Gas 6.9p per kWh and Electric 27.21p per kWh

    6.9 divided by 27.21 gives a ratio of 3.9

    So if a Heat pump has a COP over 3.9 it is cheaper to run than a Gas boiler

    As I said most people are reporting COPs of 2 in which case they are losing money compared to using a Gas Boiler.

    All sorts of other variables make the comparison more complicated, as well as radiator sizes and insulation there are factors such as how hot you need to be to feel comfortable, the size of the house, occupancy, etc
     
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    • JWK

      JWK Gardener Staff Member

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      Heat pumps must make sense to homes that are not on mains gas I would guess or homes that currently are all electric. But of course the initial cost of installing them and running in big radiators or UFH may not be viable.
       
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      • noisette47

        noisette47 Total Gardener

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        A lot of the 'green' energy measures are only really viable if incorporated into new builds. I very much doubt that developers would absorb the extra costs, though, so it would make houses prohibitively expensive for buyers. Having been told by one such developer that 'people don't really want gardens nowadays' (:yikes:) that rules out geothermal, too.
         
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        • Loofah

          Loofah Admin Staff Member

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          If the government wants to push them then they just need to give developers a reduced cost unit to install to all new builds. Mandate that all new developments over 5 dwellings to use heat pumps. That doesn't sound like it would cost that much
           
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          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            There can't be any extra costs as the green party and labour party were pointing out that by the Tories rolling back some of the measures that were due to take place by 2030 would cost us all more money. :biggrin:
             
          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            I don't feel sorry for house builders i think in many cases they are selling a substandard product for an exorbitant price.
            Most look like they are only expected to last 30 yrs, I foresee big problems in years to come with mass⁸ demolitions required but then that may be part of the plan, nobody wants something likely to last 100 yrs
            They slag off the old tower blocks of the 60s but they seem to be putting up replicas of Nelson Mandela house a lot these days along with converted office blocks.
             
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            • JWK

              JWK Gardener Staff Member

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              I think substandard housing has been built since the 1970s. When we first bought we looked at wooden framed houses and seeing them being built put us right off, I wonder how many of those have lasted the test of time.
               
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              • noisette47

                noisette47 Total Gardener

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                It depends on the type of heat pump. We've already established that those air/radiator boxes aren't really ideal for the UK climate but they're cheap and easy to install. A truly efficient system with optimum insulation is pretty expensive (I've still got the bills :biggrin:) so I can't see builders and property developers (or the Gov) absorbing the cost. The same goes for good quality solar panels. It would be reflected in increased house prices and from what I hear, they're already silly.
                These 'new' technologies are best incorporated into new builds. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of those, but short-term profit is king, and all this talk of energy saving just lip service. So much hot air? :whistle::loll:
                 
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                  Last edited: Sep 23, 2023
                • pete

                  pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                  The ground source heat pumps are surely out of the question for most new builds or existing housing in the UK.
                  Even if you pay around a million for a new build you are unlikely to have enough land for it to work.
                  So we will all be stuck with those outdoor fans that I thought were aircon units up until the last few years.:biggrin:
                   
                • noisette47

                  noisette47 Total Gardener

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                  I don't know what surface area is allocated to a UK new-build 'garden' these days? We've got a 400m2 captor bed to heat a 250m2 single storey house with wet underfloor heating, but the central part of the house is 6m high, which makes a big difference. In a normal, 2.4m high ceilinged house with good insulation a smaller captor bed would do? The main problem is that you can't plant trees or shrubs over the pipes, and there are minimum distances for drainage pipes/sewers etc. from the heating pipes. If people nowadays really aren't interested in gardening and are happy to just have a bit of lawn, it might work.
                   
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                  • pete

                    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                    Most houses are two storey so the 6 mtr high ceiling does come into effect almost, you have to heat 2 floors.
                    400 square meters I take it is 20 mtrs by 20, which is more than a lot of new builds have and I assume you would have to be a certain distance from the neighbours system.

                    I dont think its viable.
                     
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                    • clanless

                      clanless Total Gardener

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                      Octopus energy have offered a customer only fixed rate. Based upon current rates. What would you do?
                       
                    • gks

                      gks Total Gardener

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                      I think there is something in the building requirements regarding a minimum outdoor space, I think it is 100m2 but I am not 100% sure. There is a 5.4 acre plot for sale not to far away from me that has outline planning permission for 80 dwellings. Without taking in to account there will be a road and pavements to access the dwellings that would give each dwelling about 275m2, if I have got my sums right.
                       
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                      • redstar

                        redstar Total Gardener

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                        Not much we can do over here, as that awesome P. just left yet again 11Thousand unvented illegal immagrants cross the border in the last 24 hours.
                         
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