The Junior Doctors Dispute

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by pete, Mar 28, 2016.

  1. pete

    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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    Well, thank god, never been on the inside workings of a hospital, only on the receiving end.
    Sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

    But if the doctors have a problem with their hours they should really have taken it up with the management of the hospitals long before now.
    As what you are saying is what actually goes on now, before they start giving us a full 24 hr 7 day week NHS.;)
     
  2. ARMANDII

    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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    Under staffing and consequential over extending of Staff and resources has been the bane of the NHS for decades, Pete. Having to hire Agency Medical Staff at sometimes 4 times the cost of a member of staff is something some Hospitals are driven to. Don't forget it wasn't all that long ago when they were hiring Locums as normal practicefrom overseas for a single night, paying for the aeroplane ticket and travel expenses at a cost of anything from £3,OOO to £9.000 just for the night.

    Most of the Managers are hired to meet Government targets rather than to actually fight for resources and more money. There's a saying about Managers [of which I was one], that the longer the title for a Manager's position the more useless he would have been. I once saw the title of a Hospital Manager consisted of 16 words...I kid you not!! Just as a note, I always kept my title as a "Trouble Shooter" short ...........there were some people who only used one word for me!!:hate-shocked::heehee:
     
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  3. clueless1

    clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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    Sorry, I don't like the disagree button either. Reminds me too much of the red crosses that used to adorn my school books. But I was about to rush out the house when I hit it, and then felt bad so took the time to elaborate.

    I value your opinion as much as anyone else's, even if at times I don't share your opinion. Same with everyone else.
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      I agree, the NHS train them, then they go work for an agency, or hop off to Australia.
      Agencies then provide labour at 4 times the price of direct employment.

      A lot of the understaffing is due to there not being suitable people to employ.
      Which is why lots of the staff are recruited from abroad.
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        [​IMG]
         
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        • ARMANDII

          ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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          :heehee::whistle:
           
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          • clueless1

            clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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          • Jiffy

            Jiffy The Match is on Fire

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            I've worked many a days for 16 hours +, one job 36 hours, and one job which was driving a lorry for 20 hours a day 4 hours sleep and back driving again for 20 hours for a week and a half but that was under an exemption (legal to break the law :):snork:)
            my last job was 12 hour day+ overtime 6 days a week most days in the week we worked any thing from 12-18 hour days done that for 15 years, now :old:
             
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            • "M"

              "M" Total Gardener

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              Indeed it is (regrettably!). Perhaps, simply not in your line of work?:dunno:
              Mr "M" is permanently "on call". Plus, when certain circumstances dictate, he can easily be expected to work 16hrs without a blink, and then *still* be expected to be "on call". Fortunately (for his health's sake!), those times have been comparatively few (the word "comparatively" being subjective :th scifD36: ).
              Yes, he knew this was a "possibility" when he made that choice of employment.
              Yes, he knew he could cope with it (he was much younger *then* and we all live forever at that age, don't we ;) )
              Yes, he isn't on minimum wage - so, does that mean he shouldn't grumble? (Debateable)
              Does he hold the responsibility of "life/death" in his hands? Indeed! And would be accountable (to a far higher extent) than any "junior doctor" should the proverbial hit! Despite not being "medically" trained! How ironic!!! :th scifD36:
              Does he work weekends? Oh yes! 60% of them (that's without working out the specifics)
              Is he paid extra for working weekends? No! :roflol:
              Does it impact on his work/life balance? Betcha! But *he* never bore the brunt; that was *my* job! Which, in turn, means I couldn't *have* a career of my own under those given circumstances (when including a young family; times have changed a bit since).
              Is he a "Junior" doctor? No, not by a long chance.
              And as a final comment: "Junior" doctor does *not* mean they are all just starting out youngsters ;)
               
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              • JWK

                JWK Gardener Staff Member

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                I kind of agree depending on the work. When I worked on the family farm I was paid for those sorts of hours over the summer at harvest time. Now I come to think of it I wasn't paid the extra hours for other things like feeding, milking or checking the corn dryer (was done overnight) - it was just accepted that they had to be done and you can't just stop feeding livestock. Most of the work was very physical but didn't need much brain power so I don't recall it being a problem, even had time to get to the Pub most evenings.

                Now I'm office based and working on IT Projects, sometimes when deadlines loom the managers want to throw hours at it to complete, but that plan never works, the brain slows down and actually you just get less productive and mistakes happen so that rework is needed. So I just can't see how Junior Drs can work long hours and make consistent logical decisions - I assume they are taking breaks to recharge their grey matter.
                 
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                • pete

                  pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                  Well. I think you must be all nuts,;) because as JWK says, after a certain number of hours you aint performing properly, and if you are using machinery/ driving or sewing somebody up you are dangerous to others, and yourself.:frown:

                  My argument is, why have the doctors only now started to say its dangerous if they are already doing stupid hours?????

                  What has changed????,

                  I left my last job because they wanted stupid hours, sleeping on work benches, freezing cold and the hourly rate was rubbish.
                  It was like Christmas day at the workhouse.:snork:
                   
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                  • ARMANDII

                    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                    Nothing has changed, Pete.:dunno: But nobody, including us, either cared or either knew about it, including the NHS management and the Government over the years. The NHS staff and Doctors have been complaining for decades and none of us were listening.......but now they are faced with a Government that is bent of austerity, stretching an under staffed and under resourced organisation to cover more hours and then imposing a contract, without recruiting more Nurses and Doctors to solve the problem, they are digging their heels and fighting back ........which of course is an controversial thing because we, the public are outraged because Doctors and Nurses are above those things aren't they????
                    Let's be honest, if you were lying in a bed in a Ward in a serious condition and a Junior Doctor came to you to make a decision about your treatment and/or an operation, and you knew that he was just finishing a 84 or more hour week, would you want him to be there??:hate-shocked::scratch::doh::dunno:
                     
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                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                      No, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me.

                      So why has the BMA not stepped in and sorted out the problem, and why is it ok if they get overtime pay, but not safe if they dont?
                      Which is what I heard they were saying when it all first started.
                       
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                      • ARMANDII

                        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                        As I said this is not about pay, nor are the Junior Doctors or the BMA saying that, but that is what the Government is using as a front. But let's take the pay aspect for an example. Let say, you take a job on, after taking a 5 year Degree, then doing 2 years "foundation" experience, then around another 5 years training, to make life changing/saving [or not] decisions, watching people in agony, distress, dying etc, every day, while knowing you're going to be working shifts "that finish when it finishes", an average of 84 hours or more a week, being on call, working unsociable hours, in a consistently under staffed and under resourced company?? Then, to top it off, the company says "Well, we won't increase the number of staff to ease load and improve conditions, invest more money, but we want a better service so forget the old contract [where you're already working hours way beyond the national average]. But we're going to stop paying you overtime rates, and make more of you work 24/7 so we can make the customers believe they're getting a better and safer service. Add to the fact that you wanted to be in the profession after all that training to do some good and also with luck become a Consultant over the years, but know that in a company such as the one you're in that's going to be either a very long time or perhaps impossible. I've been in some jobs, Pete, but I'd never dream about taking that one on.:hate-shocked::doh:
                         
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                        • pete

                          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                          So why do they???

                          There has to be a carrot at the end of it all.
                          Possibly a new life abroad or a nice pad in Harley st. or even just a nice consultancy at an NHS hospital.
                           
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