As an outsider looking in... Theres an old joke. "How do you know if a politician is telling lies?" Answer "you can see his lips moving!" Cameron keeps saying he wants in, therefore, really, he wants out. An out vote will discredit not only him, but Corbyn also. That gives the Conservatives a better chance of staying in power, with Boris as PM, and also getting rid of that pesky Corbyn. A man that they see as a threat. No skin off Camerons nose, hes already said that he wont have another term as pm. Another reason I believe they want an out vote. How many are aware that a number of British citizens that are also pay UK tax are not allowed to vote? People that would probably vote "in." Of course, this is not about who will be in power after the next General Election. Its about the future of the UK, and possibly the most important question that has needed to be decided for decades. Sometimes, to see the future, we can look at the past. That may be possible in this case. After WW2, Britain was virtually bankrupt. The way that the country pulled out of that was by exporting manufactured goods. One of the biggest markets at the time became the USA. Some comanies by the 1960's were exporting to that country alone 50% of their production. Inevitably, the US market collapsed. That caused not only unemployment, but also in some cases, companies to close. We are told continually that the EU is the UK's biggest market, therefore, I for one can see a parallel. Am I right or wrong? Well, this is another point of view. I regularly import items from either the UK or USA. I do this to save money. In a way, I can be considered a (very) small company. One of many companies, both large and small within the EU. If the UK votes out, it will no longer be profitable for me to import from the UK. That's a fact, as it wasnt profitable to import before this country joined the EU, despite the EFTA agreement. An out vote will mean that I, like other companies will be forced to change suppliers for economic reasons. I've already thought about this. The UK will be dropped, in favour of the US and Germany. I believe that other EU companies will take a similar course of action. It would be foolish to suggest that EU member states will stop importing completely from the UK, but there is no doubt that their imports will be drastically reduced, and similar problems to the post war years mentioned above repeated. What will the future government - whichever party it is - say when this happens? "You've only got yourselves to blame! We told you so! Thats the reason we wanted to stay in!"
Oh @clueless1 that did make me chuckle ... ... to listen to some of the radio debates over the past couple of months some people are basing their decision solely on the Syrian crisis! Or, how many people in "the jungle" at Calais or even (I kid you not) because they like wonky veg!!! I think if someone votes based on their opinion of Boz or Os as a leader *after* the referendum, that is a big step up from the wonky veg brigade The wonky veg doesn't feature too highly on my list, but, I respect them for their point of view anyway.
Awhhh Didn't catch the Gove bleat this morning. The bits I did catch looked to be rubbishing the Osbourne figures. Osbourne has some good valid arguments - but they only relate to trade (tariffs) - there's a whole load of other issues that need looking at before I make a final decision. The out campaign is slipping behind - they need to get some figures together to counteract the Osbourne sums. Oh yea, the celebrity injunction was taken out be Elton John - the 'Streisand Effect'.
I might have got a lot of this wrong, so anyone feel free to correct me, but here goes. As far as I understand it, wonky fruit and veg was never actually banned. It was just banned to sell it as 'class 1', meaning had had very little commercial value and so wasn't typically sold. However, class 2 veg (the wonky, imperfect stuff) was still perfectly legal as animal feed, raw ingredients for processing into other food products etc. So, for example, the chef of a curry house could buy loads of class 2 veg cheap, to be chopped up and used in the meals. Of course it was still silly of the eu to make such a rule, but I think the headline is more sensational than the full story, as is usually the case. The eu has made an utter balls up of the Syrian crisis. Not least that Merkel has told the world that the doors are open without thinking to ask anyone else, and plus nobody seems to be differentiating between genuine refugees fleeing in fear for their lives, and economic migrants from elsewhere looking to short circuit the immigration process in search of a more prosperous life. It's an important distinction, and being so overlooked, results in a very divisive situation. While I'm not going to defend the eu on that point, it's hardly the sum total of the eu record. That said, the Syrian situation is influencing my decision, but not because of paranoia about an immigrant family taking my wife and job. I'm more bothered about the eu deal with Turkey. It is pure evil, and as a brit I am not proud of our association with it. Turkey has trapped genuine refugees in Syria, and has also been accused by independent observers of sending unaccompanied children back into Syria. So indirectly, the eu, through its deal with Turkey, will result in the perfectly avoidable deaths of innocents, if it hasn't already. I don't want to be associated with that by virtue of being a citizen of a nation that was party to the deal.
I think I am changing my mind again - I was struggling to cope with the notion that our pet buffoon, Boris, was supporting the out campaign but now that Pob has added his support................
To be honest @ARMANDII, the choices we have in front of us are akin to being asked to choose whether you would like to gouge your eyes out with a fork or a spoon. No matter what, the ONLY people that will benefit are the policy makers and those in positions of power or huge wealth. I was only kidding when I said I had changed my mind though - but I must admit that it doesn't sit well with me that those two clowns are supporting the leave campaign; I am no fan of Boris Johnson, but I really cannot stand Gove.
I'm with you on that!!.......However, I was stuck in the Lounge doing a job when he came on to deliver his speech and I grimaced and steeled myself to hear what lecture and pompous delivery he would give. I found myself managing to overcome my dislike for him to be surprised,and indeed astounded, to find he gave not a speech but a calm, reasoned, realistic analysis of what could/would happen to the UK and the EU should we leave. It was, to me, probably one of the best public assessments of the effects of leaving or staying in that I have heard so far, and the fact that it came from Gove, a man I do dislike, was a bit sobering.
I read this with great interest (having two sons currently at Uni). Naturally, there is a "he who pays the piper calls the tune" element to this. The EU funding supports a goodly number of universities (I don't have exact figures, so please forgive my lack of "evidence"). I have asked both of my sons where their thoughts are being directed with regard to this issue. The response is: STAY! Both are doing different degrees. Now, call me a cynic (you're a cynic!) but, in real terms, Universities, with a goodly amount of investment wrapped up in EU funds, would naturally promote an "In" vote. They would be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't. So, my point is, how sure are you that the direction your daughter is being lead, is from an unbiased viewpoint? I've listened in particular to one of my sons arguments and I can see that on a number of levels they are flawed! But, he is adamant, because he is being persuaded by his lecturers, that those facts are correct, haven't been distorted and are of an unbiased origin. I find that quite worrying on a number of levels. Not least because, as undergraduates, they are a captive audience, just learning to flex their voting muscles; yet without the life experience to draw upon to even begin to bring historical balance into the argument. I suppose I'm saying ... I'm not as confident in their judgement (given their greatest input into this topic) as you appear to be in your daughter ( baaaaad "M"; baaaaaad mother )
Polls suggest that the younger people will vote to stay in for various reasons, mostly because they have grown up with EU always being there. But as regards the money that is given by the EU for "funding a goodly number of universities" it should be pointed out that that money actually is comes from the £13 Billion that we give the EU every year. So there's a lot of slightly insane accounting and political thinking going on where we give money to someone and then the other someone gets the credit for the funding of what we should/would be doing anyway!!
The government are very quick to point out how much money they spend on our roads, but its not their money, its money we have paid them, and we pay far more in fuel duty and road tax than we get back spent on the roads. Its just politicians bending the figures and making it look like they are doing us a favour. What we actually need to know is how much we put into the EU and how much we get out.
With respect to uni students (and I do respect them), they are quite possibly the least likely demographic to form an objective opinion on anything political. I did a stint at uni. 2 and a half years part time. Being part time, by definition, I spent less time there than full time students. I was also a bit older and wiser than most full timers. Yet in hindsight, even I succumbed to a large measure of brainwashing. You can't walk from one building within a campus to another without being bombarded with political messages about some injustice in the world, some travesty against nature, some breach of human rights, some heinous proposed policy change or other. University campuses are well stocked with wannabe che Guevaras, each with their own revolution, and the all want everyone to join their cause. Even I went on protest march through London, fired up for The Cause, and it wasn't even an issue that would ever effect me.
