Ukraine

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by clanless, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. Clueless 1 v2

    Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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    I might have been wrong. The Ukrainians have forced yet another Russian retreat and they've captured a strategically important town in the process.

    Meanwhile, Russia has asked that negotiations are reopened, a request Zelensky has declined, saying he will negotiate with Russia when they have a new president, basically telling the Russian people that if they want to end the war, they have to oust Putin.

    At the same time, Zelensky has asked for Ukraine to be fast tracked into NATO, saying Ukraine has proven that it has a credible fighting force and that they can integrate with NATO ways of working.

    The Chechan warlord whose name I can never remember but who is best mates with Putin is suggesting the use of 'low yield' nukes. Biden meanwhile has put his best menacing face on to state that the USA won't stand for that, without actually saying what action the US would take if Russia did fire a nuke.

    Russia is looking pretty weak right now. The MOD has said that the recent missile attack on a convoy of civilians featured a surface to air missile which had been repurposed for a ground attack. They're saying that these are very expensive weapons so to use them for a ground attack shows both desperation and a lack of ground attack ammo.
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      I thought one of the stipulations of joining NATO was that the country wanting to join cannot be at war with another country at the time of joining.
       
    • Clueless 1 v2

      Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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      Dunno. Maybe they're planning ahead.
       
    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      They have done their best to drag NATO into this from the start, its understandable but NATO are not going to give in, I hope.
      It would be a major escalation and god knows where that would end.
       
    • Clueless 1 v2

      Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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      NATO has very much been dragged in though. NATO countries have equipped them, trained them, and provided close to real time intelligence. Putin knows this. If Russia was allowed to conquer Ukraine, the result would be the same as if NATO took a more active role now, ie NATO at war with Russia. Putin, if allowed, would not stop at Ukraine. He's been clear all along that he wants to rebuild the USSR. If NATO allowed Ukraine to fall, then you'd have Ukrainians feeling let down by the west, and consequently leaning more towards Russia, and you'd have an over confident Russia deciding to take the former Soviet NATO nations.
       
    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      So, do you want British and other NATO countries troops fighting in Ukraine, because that would be the outcome, along with possible fighting all along the front of NATO countries borders with Russia.
      Supplying weapons is one thing, also intelligence, actual involvement in fighting is something else.
       
    • Clueless 1 v2

      Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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      I don't want anybody to fight anyone else.

      But it is increasingly likely that NATO will get directly involved sooner or later.
       
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      • pete

        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        The orphanage problem may put the kibosh on their NATO application.
         
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        • gks

          gks Total Gardener

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          Yet, Romania were still invited to join NATO in 2002 and have been a member since 2004.
           
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          • Clueless 1 v2

            Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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            A rather worrying thought occurred to me. Finland and Sweden are looking to join NATO. Apparently article 5 of the NATO treaty says you can't join if you're at war or have disputed borders. Putin has said he doesn't want NATO to expand. Therefore he can scupper their applications simply by claiming a bit of their territory.
             
          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            Does he need another war right now?
            But I bet the idea has crossed his mind.
             
          • Clueless 1 v2

            Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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            I think a lot of people are making the mistake of trying to guess his next move based on the norms of rational thought.

            Putin is clearly completely insane, and it is very difficult to preempt the actions of a psychopath.
             
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            • Loofah

              Loofah Admin Staff Member

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              His Chechen buddy is a similar type. Does him sending his sons to the front line mean Chechnya is now formally in the war too?
              I said it at the start, only the Russian people can stop this insanity
               
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              • pete

                pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                I still think there are comparisons to be made between Hitler and Putin.
                Both seemed reasonably sane when they started out but became more unstable as time went on.

                Both meddled with the military tactically and wouldn't let there professionals do the job.

                His days are probably numbered but the worrying thing is what he might do before they bring in the straight jacket.
                 
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