Ukraine

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by clanless, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. Clueless 1 v2

    Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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    It was their infrastructure yes, but it was not in use and not likely to be brought back into use for years. It was the perfect target for a demonstration. Belonging to Russia, even if they got caught it would not be seen as an act of war against another state. The worst they could be accused of is violating another nation's territorial waters. But as they didn't get caught, it serves two purposes for Russia. It enables them to demonstrate their ability to launch attacks anywhere, and it creates a story that the west has attacked Russia infrastructure. It's win win for Putin.
     
  2. Jocko

    Jocko Guided by my better half.

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    It was actually the cables between Shetland and the Orkney islands (and on to the mainland) and Shetland and the Faroes. The Foreign Secretary says Russia may have been behind vital Shetland cable damage.
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      That would be more of a demonstration than blowing up their own gas pipeline.
       
    • Loofah

      Loofah Admin Staff Member

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      It's all sounding like children in the playground telling lies to teachers and each other. It would amuse me if it weren't so abhorrent.

      Doubt it. There's plenty of countries that don't care about this war one iota and it serves them very well to keep on Russia's good side.
       
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      • pete

        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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        I'm still not sure who is hurting more other than Ukraine, us or Russia.
        It seems to be crippling most western economies.

        Or am I being synical in thinking all our big companies are just making hay while the sun shines.
        If war was ever to come to this country I'd like to see a different response from those companies regarding getting off the profit bandwagon and getting on the side of right.
         
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        • Loofah

          Loofah Admin Staff Member

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          If war comes to this country I'm fully expecting millennials to stop it by gluing themselves to the road...
           
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          • Clueless 1 v2

            Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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            I have to admit that I'm s little bit annoyed with Ukraine.

            I still hope they win their land back, but I don't like some of the messages they're putting out lately. I raised an eyebrow a while ago when they made it clear they were going to take Crimea back. Ok, it's theirs. But I'm not sure that was in scope when lots of countries agreed to supply them with weapons.

            Then more recently, just last week in fact, when in an act of careful diplomacy when Iran got caught supplying kamikaze drones to Russia, the Iranian side admitted it but said they'd been supplied long before the war. This should have been enough. But no, Ukraine has threatened Iran with 'consequences'. One would almost think Ukraine has the military might to take on a second huge army. The last thing they or anyone else needs is for an ally of Putin, and one with a huge military at that, to be dragged in. I'm honestly starting to think that Zelensky would be happy to use NATO to settle all his differences.
             
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            • pete

              pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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              That is why we have to keep the reins on Ukraine while supplying them.

              They have tried dragging NATO in, full scale, for a long time, I dont blame them but we need to keep some kind of distance.
               
            • Jocko

              Jocko Guided by my better half.

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              Ukraine said "there will be consequences" and they have begun, with increased sanctions against Iran.
               
            • Clueless 1 v2

              Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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              I'm not knocking them if that's what they've done. But I hope someone can enlighten me on one point. I genuinely don't know this answer to this. My perception might be miles off.

              Sanctions are usually very much accompanied by a breakdown in communication, leading to increasing isolation. I wonder if there are any examples of that actually leading to a positive outcome for anybody?

              On the other hand, there seems to be a great many historical examples of talking leading to a positive outcome.

              Iran is a good example. A few years ago following lengthy negotiations, Iran suspended it's nuclear ambitions. Then more recently, I think it was when Trump was in power in the US, diplomacy ran dry, sanctions were reimposed, and nowadays Iran is very proactive in its nuclear goals and is also very much on the naughty list.
               
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              • clanless

                clanless Total Gardener

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                These are the countries to be wary of.

                India is taking advantage of Russia by purchasing oil at a hefty discount. But since Russia reduced the discount they are now buying less. China are also happy to exploit Russia for cheap oil - but then they are still struggling with zero covid tolerance and a property market about to collapse.

                I'm not sure that exploiting Russia for financial gain is keeping on their good side.

                India and China are scared of secondary sanctions - they can't afford to lose their biggest customer - the West.

                Military pundits now reckon that Russia will be expelled from Ukraine next Spring - that's about the time the Kremlin coffers will run dry.

                More atrocities being revealed in Ukraine - those countries who stand by and do nothing - what does it tell you about their values? It tells me a lot.
                 
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                • Clueless 1 v2

                  Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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                  China will take that gamble. They know just how tied in we've let ourselves become. Who will suffer the most if Chinese products stop reaching our shop shelves? Of course China will suffer, but not much, as they'll just sell the coal they've been stockpiling from Russia, and wait for us to cave in.

                  Some companies are pulling out of China, which is a good thing, but it will take a long time to transition away from China entirely.
                   
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                  • Clueless 1 v2

                    Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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                    Christmas is approaching. I usually donate to Cash for Kids, a scheme that aims to ensure that kids in skint families get at least one gift to open on Christmas morning.

                    This year, I want to donate for the kids of Ukraine, whether here as refugees, or still in Ukraine. There's a bazillion charities doing that but it's hard to know which ones are credible.

                    Any ideas?
                     
                  • clanless

                    clanless Total Gardener

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                    Russia withdrawing to the East of the Dnieper and setting up a 'defensive' line. Russian troops will make easy pickings for the Ukrainian himars - even more so as most of the East bank is open and building free.

                    Mind you, we know that Russia are lying - because they are speaking.

                    As soon as Ukraine gets past Kherson - their himars will be able to take out Russian assets in Crimea. Putin will throw everything in to try and stop Ukraine getting past Kherson.

                    I reckon.....
                     
                  • clanless

                    clanless Total Gardener

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                    Have a look at this:

                    The Teams4U Shoebox Appeal 2022 will this year help struggling children and families of Ukraine, Romania, Moldova, Georgia, and Bosnia. People are encouraged to get involved and help this year and help children across the world.

                    Teams4U will purchase the stuff to make up a shoebox and then make sure that it gets to those kids who would otherwise have nothing - last year it was £15 per shoe box.

                    This is what £15 looks like:

                    Shoebox appeal .png.article-962.jpg
                     
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